Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

You're one of the most interesting people on this board and part of me would love to share a pint with you and talk about this stuff.
**
Thank goodness the rest of us boring plebs are spared this prospect.

Tinsel

No. I think that the 'discomfort' is real.

However, the question is - it is proportionate to expect to use the female single sex toilets because of expected discomfort from a male looking at another male. Because no female person I know would ever expect to use a toilet designated for use for others because another female person looked at them in the toilets.

And by female person, I mean a person who has a body formed around the production of large gametes whether that production has ever, is or will ever happen. It don't mean a person who feels they should be a female person.

It is not proportionate. It never was. Because this group of male people may not even be as vulnerable as other groups of male people who still use the male single sex toilets.

There is no logic to the argument and there never was.

Decades ago, some doctors, most likely male doctors, decreed that anyone who 'felt' like a woman should use the 'women's' toilet. But it was not the 'women's' toilet. It also never WAS. Because it was a toilet for girls as well. It was always the FEMALE person's toilet. Language matters.

Nope sorry you two you can't just go about deciding what you want, the rules on how to woman have been laid down (by a man) so just be kind and stick to them please, you are ladies you need to be submissive.

*This post may contain sarcasm

oh.... soz GOTRRBS. We won't display independent thought again.... must be womanly....

Although, you really could also be right, meanstreak, come to think bout it.

Remember KJK being called a disrespectful woman because she didn't respond with distress and kind eyes upon hearing of a TW's (India W) struggles? NB: video no longer there.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3378698-Disrespectful-Woman-Posie-P-on-This-Morning

I think being fearful and submissiveness go hand in hand - don't you agree?

I find it a little hard to believe this isn’t a wind up. It is, in my humble male opinion, untrue. It is perfectly possible to be fearful and not submissive, or submissive and not fearful.

The reason I avoid female toilets is because I would be uncomfortable going there, and the reason for that is that I don’t like making other people uncomfortable. This is particularly true when those people are in a vulnerable situation. It is entirely reasonable for women to be wary of any man in spaces where they may be vulnerable. Alpha, please reflect on what it is that is causing you to dismiss women and their discomfort, dignity and even fear. You are a man who claims to be a woman, but you don’t want to know about women’s concerns. From where I’m standing, this doesn’t convince me of your ’womanliness’.

I don't believe that someone so obsessed with submissiveness and being a weak little laaady really feels that level of discomfort in male spaces. I expect they would like to, but then it isn't real discomfort if you also like it, is it?

Vague memories of a ‘half pint in a lady’s glass’.

she didn't respond with distress and kind eyes upon hearing of a TW's (India W) struggles

.........

I have no swear words bad enough. Wtaf is with these bloody people who think the only thing women are born for is to provide therapeutic experiences to men?

We're not talking about functional people. Most men of my acquaintance are not this limited. Or so ruddy unpleasant. So much of this agenda seems to be a tiny group trying to make dysfunction into a fashionable and acceptable thing.

If they were only playing with women consenting to pander and be dehumanised it would be ok. But it's not. So fuck off. The whole thing can just fuck off.

Although, you really could also be right, meanstreak, come to think bout it.

I absolutely think she's right. A lot of the "distress" claimed by these males is affected, and part of their fantasy of being a woman.

Please remember that 'submissive' is quite possibly being used in its BDSM context as much as an interpersonal one.

What Arthur said

Hey rapidonsetgendercritic, as a male what do you think of this statement?

"I'm not walking into a room full of men standing there holding their penises while I'm wearing a dress. Can you see why that might be an issue? I feel like a woman inside."

If a male person walked into a toilet wearing a dress, with other male's standing at the urinals, what is likely to happen in your opinion?

This.

This is taking all of the club stuff into a public place, involving non consenting others, enjoying their responses including distress and fear, and trying to con you with a lot of word salad that this is ok. In ways that would get them blacklisted from any responsible club.

When discussing this subject one needs always to imagine 'what is driving this' and bear in mind 'getting off' is quite often the answer.

The discomfort could be fully performative. It could also based in reality and be hinged on past opinions from decades ago. I do suspect it is being hugely amplified for the purpose of 'not appearing like those male fetishists' and that it has been shaped to suit the purpose of emotionally manipulating all female people.

I think, what I meant to say is that even if it was based in reality, it is not a proportionate response.

That's what I meant by BDSM being the window front.

In the 90s/00s the public were presented with Ann Summers, that execrable 50 Shades of Grey book, and a dash of punky bondage.

Most people didn't investigate beyond a bit of leather, lacy underwear, and spanking. Girl power in rubber catsuits. Leather chaps on Pride parades. Etc.

What they may have missed (and perhaps were intentionally misled about) was that the driving force behind it all is power. Eroticised power.

That can be expressed in a mainly 'safe and sane' way, consensually. Or it can slide very easily into non consensual paraphilias.

Bait and switch, really.

'No kink-shaming' was presented as involving BDSM in the 'safe, sane, consensual' manner, but then escalated very quickly with furries, puppy play, flashing, public humiliation, adult babies, etc. All of which far too frequently are predicated on paraphilias and by definition non consensual.

Then we rapidly find ourselves in Aleister Crowley territory, without a clear map.

All of which is also linked to 'queering boundaries', which lends a veneer of academic respectability to rape culture.

Yes I agree and I think a lot of us have to question about how much personal stuff to disclose versus trying to show the evidence again and again for the ‘debate’ for the greater good.

I think the ‘having to go through this yet again with these people’ came across with Helen at the beginning of the original debate too. But obviously she’s dealing with huge datasets and research so in that way it is easier and more statistically valid.

But it is the individual stories from girls and women on mumsnet that peak so many people that women’s rights are being eroded for some very dodgy motives.

A (male) friend of a friend flatly refused to buy me a pint and came back from the bar with two halves for me. I bought the next round and had his pint put into shot glasses. Men don't get to decide how I behave.

That’s amazing.

You definitely won that round (pun intended).

Absolutely.

It's fucking obscene that women are forced to disclose the reasons why they need 'privacy dignity and safety', when these are things that the EA affords us in law, in single sex spaces. And should be obvious to anyone after a moment's thought.

But if it cuts through, and if those illustrations are what it takes, then that is what is useful about an anonymous space.