Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

The discomfort could be manufactured, it could also be real. I’m happy to give the benefit of the doubt here because my argument is not “oh your discomfort is all a fiction, so that’s why you can’t enter female spaces.”

Let’s say the discomfort in some cases is real. So real, so distressing that a transwoman feels like a nervous wreck in the gents’ toilets. I am a kind person but this is my line in the sand: No males in female spaces. Ever. Campaign for your own additional spaces or educate men to be more tolerant of those who are different. Men can learn to “be kind”. I’m sure many are already.

Women’s toilets and other facilities, sports and spaces are not for male people to enter. No exceptions.

Excellent posts.

And all manipulative sales techniques. Salami tactics. Until you saying that a man with an erection in a leather suit and a dog mask wanting to be patted by your kid, or a lesbian protesting sexual coercion and harassment from a bloke is 'homophobic' and women standing up for their rights is 'misogyny'.

All achieved through nice, well intentioned people, not wanting to judge or be unreasonable and folding with instant sympathy at 'poor me' bids.

And we come back to QT. It always comes back to queer theory and just who benefits from lowering societies sexual boundaries.

And part of that lowering of sexual boundaries is this demand that women and girls accept male people into our single sex spaces. Because these are people who demand there are no boundaries and no spaces that are not accepting of them.

It really is just like people trying to make some kind of distinction between males who are outright fetishists as this male poster is desperately seeking to distance themselves from, versus the reality of what can be gleaned from the posts of this particular poster. That the submissiveness and fitting of the persona into regressive and dare I say it 'romantic' (in the way that they have stepped out of a Barbara Cartland book) is, according to this male poster, most definitely not part of that very same thing they are desperately denying.

That some people seem to try to parse the admonishment and the scolding, the arrogance, when women don't do as this poster demands as not part of that thing that is desperately being denied. That it is not actually the real person finally peaking through or that they have nuanced it all away so that it can be somehow acceptable - that this is a poster who is different and that we should be kinder to them.

But it really is all part of removal of boundaries.

So, who ultimately benefits from that?

LARPing comes to mind.

And, like LARPing, the player can choose to walk away from the role at any moment.

Women can't identify out of either oppression or a dangerous situation.

I've no idea what Fionne Orlander does now but, previously, Fionne only used male facilities. The only challenges FO were curiosity, not threatening.

Men in man buns, robes, and sarongs appear in public and use male facilities all the time without being challenged.

It's a thrilling contriversy to think otherwise and I can only think it involves personal | gratifying motives.

A (male) friend of a friend flatly refused to buy me a pint and came back from the bar with two halves for me. I bought the next round and had his pint put into shot glasses. Men don't get to decide how I behave.

I love this

i used to spend some weekends with my grandparents in a Grim Up North Town. I used to go to one of the local Working Men's Clubs with my Grandad while my Grandma made Sunday lunch (tiny kitchen, she used to chase us out). He'd order a pint and a half, and the reply from the bar staff was always "the half's for a lady?"

I really loved those Sundays with the flat-cap brigade reading the Green 'Un, talking about Wednesday's dire performance (if it had been a home game I'd have been there with him) the day before. Some Elvis or Frank Sinatra wannabe would be crooning on the stage, ignored by all of us rubbing our hands at the prospect of Sunday lunch and wondering if we'd be getting the wonder that is a Seasoned Puddng.

Awful gender roles, but i did enjoy it now and again.

Most men would carry on peeing, I think, try to avoid eye contact, wash their hands (maybe) and depart. A few might say something unpleasant, though that’s most unlikely in the toilets I use, as I don’t move in the same social circles as the sort of men who are that verbally aggressive. There might be a few sidelong glances or stifled comments, again more likely in some places than others.

The chances of physical violence are in my opinion very low, though if the dress-dressed sought out toilets in a rough part of town they might be able to find some. If transwomen stick to ‘progessive’ environments everyone will try very hard to act as if they hadn’t noticed, or on the odd occasion they might be over-friendly to show how virtuous they are.

There is a small chance of encountering a sexual predator, but no more than I experienced as a rather feminine looking teenager walking along the streets; I was propositioned by a man on more than one occasion, which is an experience that will be quite familiar to many women.

Struggles like growing a cervix.

I think they would drop their penises and have to hold up their handbags saying 'OOh is there a lady in the toilets?'

I use the male toilet wearing a skirt and it is no problem at all. Every man knows the Man Toilet Rules.

1. No eye contact
2. Ignore ignore ignore
3. Use the furthest available urinal

Men like to fart in the gents toilets, as well.

Never forget the farts!

Ach, it's all just part of the relentlessly tedious force teaming bollocks. Along with the offer to share a pint. Because all feminists drink pints, right?

Whilst fondly imagining that no one can see the blatant manipulation of singling me out for comparison in an attempt to divide.

Just what you want in the ladies.

And yes, it's just a rerun of what Hayton said.

It can't be a massive coincidence, that both these male individuals disregard women's consent when it comes to their spaces.

Their size tens are just the same as any other men's size tens.

Upthread, a PP mentioned R0wantrees.

She was wonderful. I miss her.

Is anyone in contact with her? I'd love to know how she's keeping.

It’s a sort of self recharging energy. The more you say it, the more you enjoy saying it and the better you feel

Totally. It becomes something of a compulsion!

Well, maybe, just maybe they would all take the time to appreciate a 'set' of breasts that have been developed after sooooo long a wait that they would indeed drop their penises.

Wasn't someone supposed coo over the long awaited set of breasts? I mean, there was absolutely nothing concerning in the absolute euphoria and demeaning nature of "I can't tell you how wonderful it is to have a real set of breasts if you've lived for several decades without one." Like you know, nothing at all like women and girls bodies being objectified indirectly here .... nothing to see.... nothing to be concerned about.

She's fine she's just doing other stuff.

I'm glad to hear it.

The last paragraph here is exactly why my son (mentioned a few pages back) won't use the ladies toilets. Or the accessible/disabled ones. Because he would hate to make the women in them feel uncomfortable, and he isn't disabled.

Unless I've missed it, it seems @AlphaTransWoman still hasn't answered whether aforementioned son should be allowed to use the ladies. And if not why not? Surely if Alpha can, DS can.

Is this the answer you wanted terfosaurus, on page 30? It came with the scolding kicker that women should be 'charitable' and allow your son into our toilets. ie. A male person welcoming another male person into female single sex spaces.

The misogyny of which was lost on that poster. They have a misogyny blind spot and wouldn't recognised misogyny even if it bit them (figuratively no literally 'bit them' of course)

AlphaTransWoman · Yesterday 23:29

Terfosaurus · Yesterday 23:26

Still doesn't answer of you think he spíd use the ladies or not. If he has no other choice.

I'm not sure if this is some sort of trap, but if a terrified child has literally no other option, I would hope women would take a charitable approach to him using their toilets.

More importantly Alpha hasn't answered if Isla Bryson can use the ladies. And if not why not? Surely if Alpha can IB can.

I'm sure Alpha doesn't think convicted rapists belong in the ladies but Alpha hasn't offered any sort of solution as to how 'good' Trans women are let in while 'bad' Trans women are kept out despite being soooo keen to find a 'middle ground' solution.

So come on @AlphaTransWoman let hear how we let some men in but keep others out?

Yes, it's so manipulative. It's all about you women should let him, if not you're in the wrong. It'll be your fault if he gets punched, you bitches.

Rather than any kind of reasoned out neutral justification, that doesn't involve women being at fault.

That was an interesting answer, and if my son was a small child I'd take him with me. He's not though. He's 17 and 5ft10ish.
After I clarified that alpha started wittering on about accessible toilets.

I'd like to know why alpha thinks they should be allowed to use female toilets (as a male born person) if my son (also a male born person) isn't allowed. What's the difference? In Alphas mind that is. I know what i think. I'm trying to understand.

Exactly, @RethinkingLife

I know why, @Terfosaurus, but it's 'been debunked'.

Us dinosaurs and our rights-hoarding, debunked beliefs-hoarding ways…