Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

1000 replies

ickky · 19/10/2023 21:06

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email [email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

The clerk will ask you (in a private remote room) to put your camera on to verify, this involves looking at you, but no ID is needed. You may turn off your camera after this pointless and unnecessary process.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

Professor Jo Phoenix v The Open University

Academia and gender critical beliefs

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

OP posts:
Thread gallery
36
WrensAreAllDinosaurs · 20/10/2023 11:10

Emotionalsupportviper · 20/10/2023 08:48

Mine doesn't need to. ask - as a retired man trapped under two large cats he is unable to escape wand gets a running commentary from the posts on here, with particularly witty comments, and particularly stupid OU admissions read out verbatim. His worst times are when I (tunelessly) sing the lyrics to all o the songs.

MINOR DERAIL. RE: CHEESE AND GINGER BISCUITS COMBO

The ginger biscuit employed was that King of Ginger Biscuits, the Ringtons' Ginger Snap - a thin and incredibly crisp biccy with a very pleasing crackled appearance to the surface texture. It is (I would estimate) about 2 inches in diameter, so large enough to give a decent taste sample. Sweet, but not too sweet, and equally recommended for crunching and dunking, the Ringtons is the Viperine ginger snap of choice and well worth its exorbitant price. It is considered a necessary indulgence in the Vipers' Nest.

The cheese was a modest Pilgrim's Choice Extra Mature Cheddar - a reasonable, modestly priced cheese - smoother in texture than is ideal (I like cheese with those little crunchy bits in it) but not at all bad for the price. Two thin(nish) slices were placed on the biscuit. No butter was involved in this experiment.

The preliminary nibble seemed to be ginger biscuit flavour only, so I added a smidgeon (1) more cheese. The next bite was considerably more satisfying and as I chewed and the rich, slightly tart, creaminess of the cheese merged with the crunchy sweetness of the ginger biscuit, I realised that I had been blessed with a new taste sensation to add to my cheese pantechnicon (2).

I would give it 4⭐out of 5. I am going to try it with a stronger cheddar from the cheese shop in the Metrocentre - they do a lovely Northumbrian Cheddar which has quite a bite.

All in all, definitely to be recommended. Try it with your preferred cheese and biccies as it is worth the experimentation (3)

(1) Lump

(2) I am not sure if this is the right word, but it looks very impressive, and if the OU can get away with talking bollox, there is no reason why I shouldn't.

(3) This has got m wondering if you can actually buy cheese with crystallised ginger in it, like you can get Wensleydale with cranberries in. It seems such a made-in-heaven combination that if you can't I'm going to Write An Open Letter to cheese companies to demand suggest it. I will expect you all to sign. There's no need to read it - just lend your support. Trust me that it is a worthy cause. I feel very unsafe that such a cheese is not freely available in supermarkets/

Show quote history

I knew I liked you. A fellow northerner and a cheese lover too - although I’ve had to move away for work, and now Mr Dinosaurs and the little Wrens have me stuck unable to return home to the north

katmarie · 20/10/2023 11:10

I'm finding it hard to imagine what other defense they could offer. It's clear the OU failed to follow the grievance process. They also failed to provide any protection to Jo for her beliefs. Those two things alone are enough for Jo to win, surely?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 20/10/2023 11:10

PoshCoffee · 20/10/2023 11:07

The administration of this ET has been appalling. I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.

Being subject to Justin's mercurial whims is a very poor show.

WrensAreAllDinosaurs · 20/10/2023 11:13

I think they’ll go for it was just a (twitter) storm in a teacup. Fault on both sides and Jo should have been more robust (and would have been without illness and grief) and generally nicer to her colleagues. Maybe with a touch of if she’d stayed the issue would have been resolved without all this legal unpleasantness.

Edited to clarify - I can’t imagine how Jo could have been more robust and still human, and I’m sick to death of woman having to ‘be kind’ or be punished. I just think the OU has limited options and this is what’s available to them

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/10/2023 11:13

As far as I could tell she was only difficult in that she refused to change her beliefs, change her research direction, agree violent male prisoners (with an inner feminine gender identity) wants should be centred at all times and that being a lesbian wasn't about same sex attraction. You know, just deny the truth of everything important to her life and work and bow down before the alter of gender ideology and the Emperor's new clothes.

If that's 'difficult' I guess I'm difficult too.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 20/10/2023 11:14

I logged in at 10.28 as I had a 10.30 meeting and didn’t want to miss the slot to enter if Justin was clerking. Seems I need not have worried.

SqueakyDinosaur · 20/10/2023 11:16

I don't think it was Jo who was lacking in robustness! But yes, I agree that is one of the very few arguments that is open to them.

LarkLane · 20/10/2023 11:16

And not one genuine example of Jo's alleged transphobia given throughout this Tribunal. Speaks volumes about these narrow minded one trick pony people.

Mmmnotsure · 20/10/2023 11:16

Ameanstreakamilewide · 20/10/2023 11:10

Being subject to Justin's mercurial whims is a very poor show.

Show quote history

The panel may still be reading of course <hopeful> Although yes, we've nearly always been late in.

See also gender idealogues inserting themselves into positions of power and influence in institutions over the past years. It just shows, again, how much power one person in the right position can hold over entire groups of people.

PoshCoffee · 20/10/2023 11:16

I’m going to sack this off and catch up later . Good luck folks!

Datun · 20/10/2023 11:16

Placemarking (with popcorn, obvs).

Farmageddon · 20/10/2023 11:17

Has it actually started yet?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 20/10/2023 11:17

Not yet, Farm.

LarkLane · 20/10/2023 11:18

Farmageddon · 20/10/2023 11:17

Has it actually started yet?

Not sure. But wanted to say, that's a really interesting book you recommended to me. Thanks! Part way through it.

Farmageddon · 20/10/2023 11:19

Ok, thanks.

So about the same lackadaisical schedule as before, it's not like time is money or anything...

Chrysanthemum5 · 20/10/2023 11:21

Someone earlier said that Akua Reindorf is the KC for another OU case and I look forward to that! BC is brilliant but AR is also an incredible intellect and it will be fascinating to watch her in action.

Although to be honest what I really hope happens is the OU take a look at this and settle the other cases because I think this has been very hard on Jo and I don't want others to go through it

Farmageddon · 20/10/2023 11:21

LarkLane · 20/10/2023 11:18

Not sure. But wanted to say, that's a really interesting book you recommended to me. Thanks! Part way through it.

Show quote history

Oh cool, I'm glad you like it. The Jonathan Haidt one? It's great at giving a decent explanation for stuff that's happening over the last few years, but also pretty depressing that it is all happening IYKWIM.

I'm just catching up with this thread and it seems I've missed lots of stuff about cheese...

Mmmnotsure · 20/10/2023 11:22

People might want to check they haven't been chucked out of the waiting room if they've been waiting for a long time. I think someone said you get kicked out after c an hour?

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 20/10/2023 11:22

I seem to recall that counsel had to submit to the panel at 9am, they would read them and then the session starts at 11am. Perhaps the panel is taking longer to read. Will they also have questions for counsel? If so, perhaps they’re discussing those too. <trying to look on the positive side >

Redshoeblueshoe · 20/10/2023 11:23

Now I wish we hadn't had so much discussion about cheese . . .

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 20/10/2023 11:24

Mmmnotsure · 20/10/2023 11:22

People might want to check they haven't been chucked out of the waiting room if they've been waiting for a long time. I think someone said you get kicked out after c an hour?

Thanks for the reminder, have gone out and in again.

SidewaysOtter · 20/10/2023 11:26

I would call them but I'm using my phone for the tribunal. Has anyone tried calling them?

Original poster
ickky · 20/10/2023 11:27

TT has said the public hearing still hasn't started yet. 🙄 I hate being kept waiting, drives me up the wall.

OP posts:
CriticalCondition · 20/10/2023 11:27

Yup, I just got auto-disconnected a nanosecond before I went to log out and in again.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 20/10/2023 11:27

TT just Tweeted that they're still WFTCHTJ.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In
This thread is not accepting new messages.