Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 7

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email
[email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

The clerk will ask you (in a private remote room) to put your camera on to verify, this involves looking at you, but no ID is needed. You may turn off your camera after this pointless and unnecessary process.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

I wonder what would happen if a GC student got in touch with OU saying they needed support. Or is it just the t and nb they care about.

I see that the word which rhymes with erm...grundle is still a deleteable offence on here

I see that the word which rhymes with erm...grundle is still a deleteable offence on here

That doesn't set precedent because it's a first-tier judgement. It is a huge shame that JLR opted not to appeal.

Agreed that first-tier judgements don't set precedents.

It's nonetheless accurate to observe that RMW has parlayed that success into a role in Allison Bailey's tribunal, Rachel Meade's inquiry with Social Work England and, judging by the remarks on the Old Square bio, a number of ETs in this area.

"This case may raise a lot of emotions but to foster a supportive and welcoming community of OU students, we ask that you remember to be kind to each other during what may for some be a difficult time."

Dear OU. I've come to the crushing conclusion that some of my lecturers are complete numpties with the moral fibre of a dead houseplant. It seems the average goldfish has a better memory. What should I do?

Your second-to-last paragraph summarises why my tactic for resisting the GI madness is to bite my tongue at work and donate to legal fundraisers. I cannot afford to risk my job by speaking out. Women like Kathleen and Maya and Jo reduce that risk with every victory.

I ended up reading the JLR judgement, because I couldn't quite believe what was being said about it by certain parties online and what it supposedly meant. I'm pretty sure there was a lot of misrepresentation floating around the airwaves.

Must read it again and brush up a bit. My memory isn't as good these days as that of Ben 'Eidetic' Cooper KC.

Rather surprised I got deleted, I didn't mention any names.

To be fair it was confirmed in court that responsibility for the bundle lay fully with GCC legal representatives and not Stonewall’s legal representatives.

This maybe why posts incorrectly attributing it to a Stonewall legal representative has been deleted.

Most likely because of the costs involved.

As I understand it, getting costs at all in an employment tribunal is unusual, so even if JLR had won on appeal the chances are that the extra costs they would have incurred would have been greater than the amount that had been awarded against them already.

I think that they were just happy to wash their hands of the claimant and get on with everyday business. They weren't fighting for a principle - just the cheapest way out of the situation, I imagine.

Regular posters are aware. It's just amusing that out of any incorrect attributing which happens across this site (and let's face it, there's loads) that that particular word earns an almost instant ban.

Could be, but my bet is that it was the "misgendering".

Dear OU,
I'm finding it very triggering that the law exists, and doesn't compel everyone else to share my beliefs. What support can you offer?

None.
I'm a Very Busy Person with a Very Important Job.
Will file you under Do Nowt and Prevaricate and hopefully you will give up and sod off.

"This case may raise a lot of emotions but to foster a supportive and welcoming community of OU students, we ask that you remember to be kind to each other during what may for some be a difficult time."

Dear OU

as your staff have very strong opinions on kindness, supportiveness and welcome being for some people only and definitely not for others, and as only some people's 'difficult times' matter, can you provide a quick guide as to how to spot who has the entitlement and who doesn't? Just to avoid any accidental mis-kindnessing.

Yes indeed. I agree entirely. I cannot even be GC on my own facebook page. I have a fb friend who IS and she is awesome. One day perhaps when it becomes more acceptable to .. like.... tell the truth about the immutability of sex.

@Froodwithatowel - "mis-kindnessing"! Just bloody brilliant!

So many clever and witty women on this thread.

I think that if a GC student has concerns they should raise them. This is one route to do that. The wording is careful. The Gender Inclusion Team is mentioned but is not the only route to raising concerns. Without GC students raising concerns (legitimate concerns and only if they have concerns) there may be an assumption that all students are GI-centric.

Further to @pronounsbundlebundle
Why did they have difficulty assembling a panel? The OU is a big place with many staff.
It looks as if they only considered inviting members of their own sub department. All the witnesses seem to be British. Surely there is a bias there, liberal atheists, ‘people like us’! They could have asked members of other faculties, engineers or chemists. They could have included people from other backgrounds. Asia, Middle East, Hindu, Buddhist Japanese.

Agree - but I could understand if GC students were reluctant to put their heads above the parapet.

The atmosphere isn't particularly healthy.

mis-kindnessing is bloody brilliant!

The wording is careful.

It could be more careful - actually there is no mention of a "Gender Inclusion Team" and this is the very first line of advice:

• Contact your Student Support Team; they, along with the Gender Identity Champions, are available to provide support and guidance during your studies.

There is no mention of GC students and certainly no championship. If I was a student at OU I might have questions about what influence these "Gender Identity Champions" have on the Student Support Team and where the resulting "support and guidance" would try to take me.

Having said that, this is not the university it's the OU Students Association which is (presumably, like other student unions) independent of the university.

Looked like there were anonymous routes. The point I was trying to make above about OU student demographics is that 70%+ of OU students are working at least part time and are older than 'regular' campus students. So a more diverse and experienced lot. But yes, its a brave student who complains when their course marks might be affected (or there is that fear - real or not).

But but but I identify as more special than other people and so my feelings take priority over everyone and everything! How dare you not centre my wants?

To be fair Faen og Jævlar are also popular options, with the odd Satan thrown in if shit really hits the fan.

It is more Helvete-oriented the whole Scandinavian swearing business. Not sure why… [wanders off to read up on the history of swearing in Ultima Thule]