Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 5

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

The Savage Minds podcast wasn't played in court and AFAIK there's been no confirmation that the J or panel listened to it. However, it does appear to be important to the case so you would expect a J to treat it as background reading. It will confirm that some of the testimony from OU witnesses is actually incorrect. (Ikr!!!)

Is anyone an OU student? Please contact them and ask for support as you’re worried the OU will continue to discriminate against GC students like you.

I really want to know how they’d react.

🙄When will this very exclusive mollycoddling stop. BC could probably cite this in the Tribunal as yet another example of support for the sacred caste.

Where is the support for the no doubt thousands of GC students. Many of whom have been silenced for fear of the ostracisation.

@PriOn1 I think I heard the Judge say that she watched it. I could be wrong.

University HR departments ought to be following. I considered saying that I expected HR departments to be following, but recent evidence suggests against.

They should then brief faculties.

A clear judgement which confirms that GC staff should expect support and equal treatment from their employer would be very useful.

To be fair to the OU their students association will be a separate organisation not actually part of the university - although very closely linked. So they have no actual say over what the SA choose to publish or do. I don't know about the Gender Identity champions - they may well be student roles within the SA

The OU barrister asked the next morning whether the Judge had managed to find the podcast (something about "these substack things can be tricky", came over a little patronising but that seems to be the style!) and the Judge reassured her that it was fine - but didn't explicitly say "yes I listened", that I'm aware. She already had the transcript, so it wouldn't surprise me if she only dipped in to find the controversial parts - or who knows, maybe she listened to the whole thing with a single malt and went on to discover Mumsnet, in which case hi Judge :-)

Btw who knows what rules or conventions there are about that? Witnesses can't read about the case while they're sworn in, can they, but I think they can after they've finished giving evidence? What about before they give their evidence? And what about the solicitors, barristers, judges involved? Not that they're likely to have time to read news or social media reports of an ongoing hearing, but if they did, is it allowed?

I've never done any gardening before, but this has all made me so angry that I got my spade and fork out yesterday and found some turnips and carrots for Jo.

I've always been massively pro-OU, but if this is the calibre of some of their academics... its horrendous!

Thanks for the replies about the podcast. It sounds like the judge knows what’s in it, even if she didn’t listen right through.

I do wonders what she expected and what she’s making of the witnesses so far. The tweets make it sound like the OU witnesses were so exasperating that she must surely be aware, but I guess their being exasperating doesn’t necessarily mean that she will conclude that Jo’s exit was as a result of constructive dismissal.

Just caught up on yesterday's events. My goodness, how do these people become lecturers?? And all this "showing solidarity with students" - only the ones who agree with you!

Thanks to everyone commenting and sharing updates, links and poetry!

Off to the garden now... 🌱🌱🌱

Thinking about the judges in these cases - as I have never seen a non GC tribunal, I wonder if what they are seeing is usual batshittery?

So so good! I was singing along after the first line.

Thanks everyone for all the threads and spiffing commentary. I’ll do some more gardening this weekend - it’s well worth it!

I have been an OU student, and I’ve been horrified by their treatment of Jo. Before this though, I wrote to confirm that shared accommodation at field schools would be allocated by sex not gender - no such assurance was given, despite numerous emails (I ended up booking a single room). So, the student association is problematic (gender identity champions, with no equivalent support for GC students), but my experience is that the way the university treats GC students is poor too.

The maddest tribunal I've heard of was this one: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65632912

But I think it's safe to say that the complainant in that case had some fairly batshit ideas that everyone except her recognised as such.

Open University?
As a Londoner, "Well! it is Milton Keynes".

This is proving quite nicely what those innocents asking so kindly for 'middle ground' need to understand.

There is no middle ground possible: lack of bias, impartiality, equality of respect is transphobia to this political movement. You must be full on prejudiced and intolerant against all but the Saved, or you are of the Sinners and Infidels.

You cannot be reasonable with those who Ground Control lost all contact with some years ago.

I'm merely from a maths background, but here's my contribution:

If someday it should happen that a victim must be found
I’ve got a little list yes I’ve got a little list
The OU for hounding out a prof just for doing her job
And letting those around act like a braying mob
The hectoring KC who broke Jo so much she cried
And called 18 witnesses so they could say they tried
Yes We’ve got them on the list, we’ve got them on the list
And we know they’ll not be missed, we know they’ll not be missed.

The head of the department who just wants a quiet life
He wants it to be over so he can go home to his wife
And the head of HR who leaves grievances unread
And instead listens to others who claim they know what’s said
The letter signing genderists who didn’t read it first
If you believe that that is true you’ll believe in fairies first
The authors of the letter who never can be found
They have all just gone to ground, they have all just gone to ground
And they never will be found, they never will be found,
they just never ever ever ever ever will be found

Then there’s the wafflers who waffle on and answer questions won’t
And when asked to engage their minds we just see that they don’t
The English doc who went trawling for students so upset
They needed help rising above the non existent parapet
And not forgetting genderists who all have lost their mind
They want us to be kind, they want us to be kind
But we know they’ve lost their mind, we know they’ve lost their mind.

But all through this let’s not forget the ones who really would be missed
They’re NOT on the list, no they’re NOT on the list
The KC with his beard who stays calm though off he’s pissed
He really would be missed, he really would be missed
And poor Jo Phoenix who from ashes will surely rise again
Although it has to be said her life will never be the same
It will never be the same, which is really such a shame,
Yes it will never be the same which is really such a shame.

But the others won’t be missed, the others won’t be missed
For we’ve got them on the list we’ve got them on the list.

Bravo @TeenDivided 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@SqueakyDinosaur that is indeed a batshit ET.

Hag - you have my sympathy. A friend is doing her PhD at LSE and is constantly on guard fir any wokeness.

@TeenDivided oh I'd posted before I saw your magnificent poem!
Fantastic, I wish I had your talent!

Bullshit re inclusive and supportive cultures. They have aptly demonstrated that they care only about a minority of students and staff and will take no care for those who don't conform to their rigid prejudices. This is a very clear example of virtue signalling.

🙄 As I said earlier, the pampered little darlings should read Jo's witness statement about her early life in the US. This "support page" should read "not everything is about you and your ideology, grow up".

Squeaky

Karina Gasparova also claimed that when Alexander Goulandris renamed a work file with his initials 'ajg' it was an abbreviation of "A Jumbo Genital".

That is seriously batshit. I would have watched the hell out of that one. 😂

Teen - excellent 👏