Dismissed by supposed ally husband

[BewilderedPiskie]

I thought my husband was truly listening and understanding my concerns about TRA rhetoric and it's political and social impact but now with an election looming he has told me repeatedly that I NEED to vote Labour as "the trans thing" is a non-issue and women are not under threat. Essentially he has now made it clear that he does not believe there is a problem and I am just being swayed by 'online' noise. I find this utterly repellent. I have spent 4 years listening to and reading both online and imprint. His out of hand dismissal of everything I have looked at, read and researched makes me realise how absolutely misogynistic ordinary and supposedly supportive men can be. I'm menopausal and my memory is terrible. I know that I have been made increasingly worried by a huge number of well researched and documented articles, online pieces, books and podcasts; please could you send me links that have the key GC arguments and that demonstrate why Labour is particularly problematic for women's concerns. I feel utterly betrayed.

The current tory government are the most insidious, misogynistic, dangerous bunch of politicians I've ever seen in my life. They've been buoyed by the bunch of selfish right wing zealots who voted them in, and have successfully rebranded basic human empathy as a negative thing, by calling it 'woke'

Whilst I don't disagree with your stance OP, I find the thought of a single more year of tory rule far far more worrying than a new Labour government.

I think your main problem is realising your husband is not who you thought he was. I had the same problem

yes, the main issue in the op was about a man and supposed partner who totally dismisses the ops legitimate sex-based concerns because they don’t affect him and his penis privilege. This is a demonstration of patriarchy and misogyny. Him saying, “I understand your concerns and agree with them but I still think … “ would be a different matter.

I’m not sure how this turned into a Tory v. Labour or other thread …

@PermanentTemporary "I would stop talking about it. He's said his piece. He doesn't get to control your vote. Neither do we, incidentally."

This ^

My DH and I are on opposite sides of several issues, so we just don't discuss them. We agree to differ and it saves a lot of arguments and ill-feeling. 🙂

OK let’s get this straight because a decently funded NHS and decently funded public services like state education are absolutely a cross cutting essential social question for the vast vast majority in the UK. Life or death.

Vote Tory if you like the Tories.
And Vote Tory if you want to see the dismantling of the NHS and public services like state education (just to give one single example) on which millions of women and our kids rely on in the UK. The NHS and public services are used by the vast majority of the population. We can’t pay for these privately.

Yes gender woo is currently shamefully obscuring some sets of public statistics including to do with the NHS and public services like education. Absolutely yes regulatory capture is a travesty. Thank god here we can all talk and organise to campaign against that.

However to claim to vote for the Tories, who by their actions we can see are hostile to funding essential public services decently- let alone funding them effectively or well … on the basis that Labour or the alternative parties, would obscure statistics about the recipients of public services with gender woo is bullshit.

This whole problem is already here. It arrived and embedded in institutions over the past 13 years. And what have the government of the past 13 years done about it? The Tories, who apparently are the only party who ‘know what a woman is’ have given us £5 GRCs. That’s literally it. And they pulled back on imposing self ID on the country just a couple of years ago.

We don’t need to wait for sex-accurate government statistics to tell us who heads up single parent households in the vast vast majority of situations in the UK and is therefore highly vulnerable to the decimation of public services It’s Women

We don’t need to wait for sex-accurate government statistics to tell us which group is underpaid relative to men and is therefore highly vulnerable to the decimation of public services. It’s Women

and so on. We already know these things. Structural social and economic discrimination against women is flourishing under the Tories right now. It’s awful.

So voting for Tories who we already know would support women economically less, because we think the alternative parties would obscure statiics in the same way as the Tories currently do (or maybe three would do it worse let’s be really pessimistic) doesn’t make sense.

There will be even worse funding for public services coming under future Tory governments. Whatever word the Tories, or Labour, or anyone else uses to label those women with. We know who the victims are now and will continue to be in future. Women.

So personally for me, voting for a party that would fund public services as a priority is the most pro-woman action I can take.

Anyone who is willing to vote Tory and using this as their excuse is lying. You were going to vote Tory anyway. There is no way anyone who is truly against the Tories and who isn’t blind to the state this country is in would ever vote for them for this reason alone.

You were always planning to vote for them.

You're wrong

@Boiledbeetle Think that if you want, but I genuinely believe that no one could be so close minded as to vote for a party based on one issue, however large. Not when there are countless other large issues that the Tories are responsible for that are destroying the country.

Think that if you want, but I genuinely believe that no one could be so close minded

with due respect, Moro, this post of yours is remarkably close-minded.

'truly against the Tories'?

The sensible way to vote is to base your decision on assessment of a range of issues.

And fwiw I think it's both rude and counterproductive to hector people.

Is this the state of political discourse, when 'you're lying' is applied reflexively to people who don't fall neatly into your worldview?

It's one way to keep life simple, I guess. A world filled with black and white and the shades of grey and any hint of complication erased by accusations of duplicity.

It only speaks to your own deficiency.

Moro if you genuinely want to discuss, see Slothtoes reasoned and reasonable comment further upthread. This is a more effective way to engage with people who disagree.

I'm interested in Labours policies, what are they actually going to do, should they get in, in the UK?

I would usually vote Labour. I can't because of statements like these.

I'm politically homeless.

I remember Thatcher's policies and the way they impact us to this day. However I have contacted my MP about a couple of things and she has been prompt with the answers.

But she is a Tory.

Also when the council elections were coming up I tried to ask my local Labour councilor what a woman is and he laughed at me and walked away telling me to, "go have a conversation with someone else".

I don't know where the idea comes from that 'discussion' is about flinging insults, or that bullying or shaming people is the best or the morally correct way to change people's minds.

Tribalism helps nobody.

Tribalism helps nobody.
Agreed. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who say "I vote X because our family have always voted X".
If Political Party X knows that they always have your vote, no matter what they do, then they have no impetus to move policies towards your preferred direction.

Agree with what is being said about tribalism. The best political solutions arrive because different people with different life experiences and beliefs have considered an issue from a lot of different angles.

Voters in a democracy are going to vote or spoil their vote or not turn up according to their varied values and life experiences. That’s inevitable and healthy.

I agree that it’s good not to berate each other for not making different voting choices (from a purely GC perspective) because I value the cohesion of this discussion community on MN and I can’t replicate it IRL. FWR has great value for women across the political spectrum, for consciousness raising, thinking and debating and for some, organising. That is unique and valuable. Not deterring any woman is pretty crucial.

We’ll have the luxury of party political division once we have won this culture war but for now consensus solely on the GC issues and actions is what is needed I think. And each to her own, on the other political issues of the day.

The most successful campaign groups all take that approach. Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence and all the rest of them don’t care how their supporters vote! They couldn’t care less and with that they have mounted an incredibly successful cross-party appeal to male sex supremacy and male sexual access supremacy. Their politics is now embedded in all the major political parties and our major national institutions. By activists of all political stripes.

So we have a whole mountain range to climb to get women’s rights taken seriously across the political spectrum. It needs all of us on board to get there.

I have never voted Tory. Your assertion is incorrect, and wrapped up in the kind of arrogant Lefty presumptiousness that makes it even harder for me to consider voting Labour.

The Conservative party is centre-right. Labour is centre-left. There really isn't the gulf of policy difference between them that there is in countries that have hard left and right parties in power. I find the extreme language used to describe Tory policy hard to reconcile with modern Britain, having lived in European countries that have an active and popular rightwing movement.

If your focus on is on Truth, Reality and Science, you should take a look at what the Science says on global heating / climate change, join XR and never vote for a Tory again in your life.

you can't pick and choose the bits of Science that support your ideological position.

All governments are vulnerable to idealogical sway though. The Tories were proposing to bring in self ID for the whole UK until they saw how unpopular it was. They genuinely thought that was a great idea. That’s ideological sway, and it was not averted idealogically. Just pragmatically. Otherwise the Tories would have taken out the GRA and reformed the EqA. Or given guidance to schools. Etc. They haven’t done any of that that.
Self ID was only averted by practical self serving politics. Thank god for that. A party with stiffer principles might have pushed it through.

A party with stiffer principles might have pushed it through.

Yes, and for me this is often when I find Labour more frightening, in some ways.

It's hard, because integrity does require an amount of conviction. But that conviction can very easily tip into righteousness and self justification.

I think pragmatism may in the end become a solid principle for me.

There is no issue that is more important than women's rights. Labour thinks women are so used to putting everything and everyone else first that we'll vote directly against our own interests and leave them to indulge their trivial luxury beliefs at our expense.

That's before we get into discussing what exactly Labour are going to do different from the Tories. Starmer's flagship of housebuilding is exactly the same as what the Tories have said and let's be honest, neither party will do it anyway. Our Liverpool mayor Steve Rotheram was on politics live and his reaction was gleeful anticipation of 5 years of creating a framework to make a process to plan which sites to use or something (which is par for the course with him but that's another issue). Don't forget, Reeves has repeatedly said she'll crack down on disability benefits. They won't even drop the 2 child policy! Hoping Labour are better doesn't make it true. I'm spoiling my ballot myself.

In all fairness, I wasn’t trying to make a reasoned argument, I was just stating my opinion.
I’m actually not close minded at all, I’m just not willing to put energy into having a debate when people have already decided who they’re voting for and nothing anyone says will make a difference.

I’m in disbelief more than anything. As some previous posters have said, you can fight for what you believe regardless of which political party is in power. I can’t wrap my head around people saying they’re voting Tory just because they’re GC. You have to agree with their other policies or surely you wouldn’t consider voting for this reason alone? Not while in everyday life we can see the results of them, in the crumbling NHS and people who are struggling to live (2 of countless problems). It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Don't forget, Reeves has repeatedly said she'll crack down on disability benefits. They won't even drop the 2 child policy! Hoping Labour are better doesn't make it true.

This is very true. Those attacking people for voting Tory on the basis that Labour are going to 'save the NHS' etc, is there evidence they are willing and able to actually do so?

@Moro93

They're not voting tory because they're GC, they are voting tory because that's fundamentally what they are. Otherwise they'd be unable to contain their vomit in the polling booth. Nobody in all seriousness could re-elect this shower on a single issue. Especially when the tories are just as likely to do a U turn if (or more likely when) it suits them. The right wing press have wipped this issue into a mass hysteria frenzy, and it looks like its worked! Well, good luck everyone. Here's to another 5 years.