How do we find a middle ground?

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How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

How would you keep Lucy Letby out (pre incarceration)? She might harm a baby in a buggy while the mum is in a cubicle.

Aren't you embarrassed to be making these kinds of arguments?

How would you keep Lucy Letby out (pre incarceration)? She might harm a baby in a buggy while the mum is in a cubicle.

Lucy Letby murdered, therefore men should be allowed in women's toilets?

The problem is that the whole situation has got so completely out of hand, and has morphed from fully re-assigned transsexuals to Gender self ID whereby anyone can identify however they like and it is not a medical issue just a matter of 'true feels'. The latter now represents most people with a trans identity.

Now we find even males with AGP ( most of the older male transitioners now) are having re-assignment surgery in order to affirm their identities - and AGP is a full blown sexual fetish. Women are not there to be unwilling walk on parts in someone else's fantasy role play.

Women have dignity as a sex class and women's boundaries must be respected.

So you guys won’t even let post-op transsexuals use women’s toilets

No, they are male and there is a perfectly good male option available for their use.

Lucy Letby murdered newborn babies in the NICU by tampering with medical equipment.

Even if someone left their newborn baby in a pram outside a toilet cubicle, which is not something I have ever seen in the entire 30 odd years I have been using toilets, and Lucy Letby happened to appear right at the moment when the mother was peeing, I highly doubt even she would have managed to pull off a sneaky murder using whatever she had in her handbag.

What an utterly bizarre argument.

I know, right!

It's pathetic.

We've had genital inspections, butch lesbians, face calipers, and now Lucy Letby 🤣

GodessOfThunder. If you're male, stay away from women's spaces. This includes, all men. Pre-op, post-op, effeminate, wig wearing, perfectly pleasant, the lot. All men.

Men's sexual response does seem far more visual and reliant on superficial physical clues and symbols - which is why fetishism is far more pronounced in men than it is in women.

For the life of me I don't understand why they even want to go near the "genital inspections" argument, given that it's actually a rock solid argument for why even post op trans women shouldn't be using women's toilets.

We can tell the difference between a male person and a female person instantly and with almost 100% accuracy just by looking at them, fully clothed.

We can't tell the difference between a post op trans woman and a male person with a penis without performing a "genital inspection".

Don't be silly!

What is required is third spaces and categories along with a re-assertion that women's single sex facilities are for women. Most people will comply; and if they don't they can be removed, just as they are now.

If there is a third gender neutral facility there's no excuse. Some new buildings already have this facility.

I've always assumed that they just like saying it. 'Genital inspections' is probably a porn genre.

They like the thought of it, and they also think if they say it out loud women will faint away on a swooning couch.

Win/win.

Yes to this

I first heard the phrase "genital inspections" used in the context of new legislation requiring children to prove their sex in order to compete in school sports in certain US states.

People were suggesting that prepubescent "cis" girls would be forced to show their genitals to inspectors to demonstrate that they were eligible to play on the girls' softball team.

Which is even sillier given that children can't change their legal sex and so, if such a law were to be passed, they could just produce a copy of their birth certificate.

People were suggesting that prepubescent "cis" girls would be forced to show their genitals to inspectors to demonstrate that they were eligible to play on the girls' softball team.

This, as well as an internal exam, used to happen to all women athletes at the Olympics. Older women athletes used to have to explain what was going to happen to young, often sexually inexperienced, girls. It was to stop the wolf in sheep's clothing - men posing as women.

Now they welcome them in!

I suspect porn addled men tend to forget that you can determine someone's sex from a cheek swab.

They are no more embarrassing than any of the arguments advanced on this thread as to why post op transsexuals should be barred from ladies’ loos.

Have you given any arguments yet as to why these males should be allowed to use women's toilets?

Because we say so, thunder.

The answer is no. We don't want men in our spaces.

What don't you understand?

My copious thanks go to @GodessOfThunder for shining brilliant sunlight. Please post even more of your incredibly educational points. #OperationLetThemSpeak

So your argument is an ideological one then: women should have spaces for women and only women are allowed in those spaces. Because women.

Can you make an argument for why post op transsexuals should be ALLOWED to use women's loos, rather than use the men's along with the rest of their own sex?

“We” lol. Like a petition from Greenham Common

Yes, women's spaces are for women.

Which part are you struggling with?

“Women’s spaces” how 1970s

Amazingly, I have heard "cis women" making this argument.