How do we find a middle ground?

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How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

I'd rather they explained why we can't trust people to not use the women's toilets if they know they were born with a penis.

Acceptance of gender nonconformity, especially by the male sex, is what needs to happen.

Absolutely this.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we can't tell. We can't tell that trans women are male so they can continue to use women's spaces even though we don't consent, but because we don't know it's happening, no one is harmed.

What else can we apply this principle to?

Is it OK for your partner to cheat on you as long as they don't get caught?

Is it OK to for your friend to use your car without permission and without insurance when they're supposed to be housesitting, as long as they don't have an accident or get stopped by the police?

Is it OK for a babysitter to go into your bedroom, go through your bedside drawers, find your vibrator and use it to have some fun while your children are asleep, as long as they put it back afterwards?

Is it OK for a decorator who is painting your kitchen to try on your underwear while you pop out to the shops, as long as everything is back in its place before you get back?

Is it OK for a cleaner who has a key to your house to let herself in while you are on holiday and watch Netflix on your wide screen TV, as long as everything is left spotless?

Everyone knows what kind of genitals they were born with. Can't we trust them to simply use the correct toilets?

So why is GodessofThunder so adamant men should be able to override womens boundaries and stating women cannot do anything about it? What ever happened to decent men respecting women and why should we setup society based on people being disrespectful? It smacks of 'men rape women anyway'

Indeed.

The concept that it's OK to violate someone, or their boundaries, as long as they don't know about it, and therefore can't consent, runs through that posters arguments, like a stick of rock.

I hope spookehtooth is watching this real life, right-in-front-of-their-face, demonstration of why women don't trust men who either fetishise them, or demand access to them.

I used to think there could be a middle ground - toilets, changing rooms etc could be male/female/unisex, there could be male, female and open categories in sports, there could be specific transgender accommodation in prisons and hospitals - but that is not what the trans rights activists want.

Using a unisex facility or accommodation doesn't 'validate' them, and nothing other than utter capitulation will ever validate them. I used to say that women have fought for centuries to get a seat at the table, and that, while I wasn't prepared to give up that seat for trans women, I was prepared to budge up a bit so they could have a seat too - but they want OUR seat, our rights, our words, our healthcare, scholarships, awards.

If they had been prepared to compromise, I think we would have compromised too - but in the face of their demands to have it all, my willingness to compromise has vanished completely.

Decent people won’t do it

I’d say Eddie Izzard would respect the law and not use women’s single sex spaces should the law change

Me too. You’d think people like Godess would be keen to convince us that transwomen would respect single sex spaces & that we have nothing to worry about, instead of telling us that they’d sneak in.

What makes you think that? He's boasted about scaring a bunch of teenage girls in a women's toilet 20-odd years ago when he still identified as a transvestite.

Sadly I suspect that if the law did change a lot of very obviously not passing trans women would deliberately break the law in the hope of being arrested and spinning a "the UK is persecuting innocent trans people who just want to pee" narrative in the global media.

So you guys won’t even let post-op transsexuals use women’s toilets because….

assault risk (despite no evidence)

display “male cues” (despite some of these cues also belonging to some women)

dont want someone who has had their penis removed in a toilet cos makes me feel icky and they weird.

And you would police this visually

you lot are hilaire

Is he running to be an MP?

Depends what the outcome is, not many people choose to be criminals / break the law

Currently men have the law on their side. Take that away and we’d be in a pretty good position

HOW DO YOU TELL WHAT KIND OF GENITALS SOMEONE HAS WITHOUT DOING GENITAL INSPECTIONS ON TOILET DOORS?

I’ll take legal change

TRAs get upset by that so I know it’s the most effective thing we’ve got

This.

Well quite - one reason it should be ok for them to use the ladies ‘ bogs

So you guys won’t even let post-op transsexuals use women’s toilets because….

they are male.

Why would you change the law specifically so post op trans bods can go in a ladies bog?

@GodessOfThunder - Jessica Yaniv, who has had surgery, has posted on social media, wondering if they could offer to help if they heard a young teenage girl in the loos, trying to insert a tampon for the first time. Are you OK with such a person being in the Ladies' loos - because I'm not.

And can you explain how we tell the nice, safe trans women from the predatory dangerous ones?

No, it's actually the opposite.

If we can't tell the difference between a male person who has had their penis removed and a male person who still has a penis, that is a pretty cast iron reason for not allowing any male people to use women's toilets regardless of what they may or may not have done to their genitals.

If we aren't allowed to keep nice, harmless post op transsexuals out of women's toilets, we have no way of keeping people like Levi Bellfield out of them.

Can you rephrase this doesn’t make sense

I would change it so men can’t. Any male regardless of body alteration.

When I think of the transwomen I know personally:

They don't 'pass' as women.
They are autistic.
They come from backgrounds with wealth but had 'failure to launch'.
They are angry at their own failures 'as men' and have decided that women should be safe enough to bully.
They despise women for rejecting them.
They have ENORMOUS victim complexes that pre-date their transitions.
They are good at manipulating suckers especially some women who are desperate to be part of the 'be kind / cool girl / please don't hurt me I'm a good girl not a hag' brigade.
They have materially benefitted from trans ideology. They have managed some classic grifter moves getting paid to mansplain how victimised they are when they weren't able to be experts in anything else.

I doubt this is an unusual profile.

Also attempted murderer Sarah Jane Baker.

When talking about a compromise middle ground I hgink what we're taliking about is in the realm of practical everyday politics - in terms of laws and rulings etc - not so much what each 'side' wants and doesn't want.

In the longer run I think we'll end up with third spaces and categories - as is now happening with sports. That way those with trans identities can have their own special, protected category, and so can women. This is how the general public will judge 'middle ground and fairness', I think.