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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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26
OldCrone · 18/09/2023 22:01

PomegranateOfPersephone · 18/09/2023 21:56

“You can recognise trans women, without believing that TWAW, or believing in various "trans rights" claims.”

Well, I recognise that some men lie about their sex and try to force other people to lie about it too. They sometimes get extremely angry if you contradict them with the truth.

Some women do this too.

I’m yet to be convinced that it is legitimate to lie about something so fundamental and insist on the silence or feigned belief of others.

This is what happens when you 'recognise' transwomen rather than just treating them as the men they are.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4899215-mind-your-prostates-ladies

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 13:54

OldCrone · 18/09/2023 13:54

Why do they need to be recognised for medical treatment? It's only important for medical professionals to know their sex.

Transgenderism is protected in the EA under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. In what way do they need to be 'recognised' other than this?

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They need to be able to recognise things like gender dysphoria and trans identity for the purposes of medical treatment like therapy or medical transitioning.

If you are saying, "in what way do they need to be recognised other than this?", then you accept that they need to be recognised for certain legal purposes.

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:08

PomegranateOfPersephone · 18/09/2023 21:56

“You can recognise trans women, without believing that TWAW, or believing in various "trans rights" claims.”

Well, I recognise that some men lie about their sex and try to force other people to lie about it too. They sometimes get extremely angry if you contradict them with the truth.

Some women do this too.

I’m yet to be convinced that it is legitimate to lie about something so fundamental and insist on the silence or feigned belief of others.

But do you agree with what I said?

Can you recognise the existence of trans women without needing to go down the TWAW path?

Is it a good approach to just say, "there are no genuine trans people"?

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:13

PorcelinaV · 18/09/2023 12:49

Does that make them a 'genuine' Jesus?

I suppose it makes them a genuine trans Jesus rather than a fake trans Jesus. And around and around we go!

If you wanted to know if someone is a genuine Christian, you would look at their beliefs, and maybe something like church attendance or whatever.

You wouldn't ask whether their beliefs are correct.

Now of course, some people want to insist that, "trans women are women".

But that's not my position.

Do you want to insist that we define "trans" as they really are the opposite sex in some sense?

Then we would just need to come up with a new term yes?

"A man/ or a woman with a trans identity" best describes the reality - whilst also acknowledging the person's chosen 'identity'.

Identity at this level is something you negotiate with your nearest and dearest - not something you impose on everyone.

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PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:15

OldCrone · 18/09/2023 22:01

This is what happens when you 'recognise' transwomen rather than just treating them as the men they are.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4899215-mind-your-prostates-ladies

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That's nonsense. That has nothing to do with recognising they exist in the sense I was talking about.

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:23

The main difference between being a Christian and having a trans identity -is that the Christian generally knows it is a religious belief system/a personal faith - but the other assumes unquestioningly the tenets of gender identity theory - and thinks it is inevitable or natural, rather than adopted.

It people with trans identities recognised that what they were doing was adopting a framework of beliefs about the self - that most people do not share and that could/should not be imposed - then we wouldn't have the problems we have.

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PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:26

"A man/ or a woman with a trans identity" best describes the reality - whilst also acknowledging the person's chosen 'identity'.

OK, so you recognise the existence of trans people then. "Trans identified male" is fine. "Trans woman" is also common. I'm not going to worry about the best term here.

Identity at this level is something you negotiate with your nearest and dearest - not something you impose on everyone.

I agree it shouldn't be imposed on the whole of society as an ideology, or when it comes to claimed "rights".

But as mentioned, it does need to be recognised in medical and legal contexts. Maybe prisons as in a trans wing of a prison. Private clubs or organisations can also recognise them of course.

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:38

RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:23

The main difference between being a Christian and having a trans identity -is that the Christian generally knows it is a religious belief system/a personal faith - but the other assumes unquestioningly the tenets of gender identity theory - and thinks it is inevitable or natural, rather than adopted.

It people with trans identities recognised that what they were doing was adopting a framework of beliefs about the self - that most people do not share and that could/should not be imposed - then we wouldn't have the problems we have.

Well they may want to claim "transphobia" if you call it an ideology, because they don't like criticism and want to evade having a proper debate.

So at the level of the activists, they probably don't want to admit that it's an ideology.

If you polled trans people, I don't know how many would admit, "it's an ideological belief that could be wrong".

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:46

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:38

Well they may want to claim "transphobia" if you call it an ideology, because they don't like criticism and want to evade having a proper debate.

So at the level of the activists, they probably don't want to admit that it's an ideology.

If you polled trans people, I don't know how many would admit, "it's an ideological belief that could be wrong".

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That's the issue, though. And that is the difference, generally, with Christians who maintain a personal faith. They don't require everyone else to believe in it too.

There are trans identified peole who do know they are not really the opposite sex. They don't seek to impose it upon everyone else- it is just a way of 'presenting' that they feel they need to do.

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:47

It is the transgression between public and private that is the issue. Identity should largely be a private matter - not a public one.

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:50

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:26

"A man/ or a woman with a trans identity" best describes the reality - whilst also acknowledging the person's chosen 'identity'.

OK, so you recognise the existence of trans people then. "Trans identified male" is fine. "Trans woman" is also common. I'm not going to worry about the best term here.

Identity at this level is something you negotiate with your nearest and dearest - not something you impose on everyone.

I agree it shouldn't be imposed on the whole of society as an ideology, or when it comes to claimed "rights".

But as mentioned, it does need to be recognised in medical and legal contexts. Maybe prisons as in a trans wing of a prison. Private clubs or organisations can also recognise them of course.

What I recognise is that some people identify as trans. I don't recognise that they are what they feel they are, no.

Theer are lost of men who have vulnerabilities in prison - and yes, there could be a separate wing to protect them from violence. The issue is, though, that many of these men with trans identities who are in prison are themsleves predatory and/or violent.

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PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:56

What I recognise is that some people identify as trans. I don't recognise that they are what they feel they are, no.

Do you recognise that they have a genuine belief? That's all that I mentioned.

I didn't say "recognise that they are really the opposite sex in some mysterious sense".

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 14:59

There seems to be a desire amongst many to assert that if a trans identified person is violent, predatory or abusive then they cannot actually be 'genuine'. This posits that trans identified people are by nature victims and incapable of the same range of behaviours as everyone else, which is simply not true.

The fact, though, that many men who are now transitioning are of the AGP variety - and would previously have been referred to as cross dressers. These people have a high level of paraphilia which can manifest in transgressive behaviours, sexual drives and desires. You only have to speak with the wives, and families, to know about this.

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PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 15:02

The issue is, though, that many of these men with trans identities who are in prison are themsleves predatory and/or violent.

In prison a lot of them may be lying.

Regardless of whether they are lying or not, you can always refuse to let them into a special wing, or kick them out of it, if you believe they are going to cause problems and be a threat to other prisoners' safety.

I would also consider trying harsher, much harsher, punishments on such people. Isolation. Whatever.

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:03

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 14:56

What I recognise is that some people identify as trans. I don't recognise that they are what they feel they are, no.

Do you recognise that they have a genuine belief? That's all that I mentioned.

I didn't say "recognise that they are really the opposite sex in some mysterious sense".

I think there are many different people who have adopted a trans identity and they have a variety of motivations and experiences. I mentioned two to you a few days ago - the tweo men who featured in the Netdflix documentary 'Regretters'. They both knew they were not really the opposite sex - they recognised they were adopting this persona in order to fulfil a deeper need that was driving them.

So the answer to that question is maybe some do, but plenty of others don't. And even then, the some that do may eventually desist when reality creeps in and can no longer be denied or avoided.

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:04

I see them as people who are driven by a psychological condition or state of mind - to enact a role.

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:12

I've been witnessing the transition of a young man over the last 12 years or so - from a distance via an Internet forum. He started off with intense and chronic dysphoria and distress around his male organ - but now genuinely seems to believe ( or has talked himself into - with the encouragemnt of allies) a belief that he is a woman.

I don't think this belief will persist forever, even though he has now had the 'full' surgery. In fact - that surgery, and its consequences, may well escalate the final reckoning with reality.

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PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 15:17

So the answer to that question is maybe some do, but plenty of others don't. And even then, the some that do may eventually desist when reality creeps in and can no longer be denied or avoided.

OK.

It would certainly be interesting if we could know exactly what is going on in some late transitioning cases. Is it sexually motivated? Can that genuinely turn some people trans? Are they lying and just somehow committed to playing that role?

RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:25

Add to that the implicit thrill in transgression...which is what lies behind Queer theory.

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:28

You are still clinging to the "genuinely trans" claim. Adopting a trans identity is not like being gay - which is just a matter of fact around being attracted to people of the same sex. There is no " matter of fact" about being trans. It is not one thing. It is many things. Many motivations. Many different reasons. Many different pathways. It is not one single state.

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Bosky · 20/09/2023 15:30

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 15:17

So the answer to that question is maybe some do, but plenty of others don't. And even then, the some that do may eventually desist when reality creeps in and can no longer be denied or avoided.

OK.

It would certainly be interesting if we could know exactly what is going on in some late transitioning cases. Is it sexually motivated? Can that genuinely turn some people trans? Are they lying and just somehow committed to playing that role?

"It would certainly be interesting if we could know exactly what is going on in some late transitioning cases. Is it sexually motivated?"

Genuine question: are you new to this topic?

Seriously, there is a wealth of research, first person accounts and more evidence on the likes of reddit than you can shake a stick at.

"Can that genuinely turn some people trans?"

As in, "Can that genuinely make some people believe that they have actually changed sex?"

Possibly but glibly calling that state of mind "trans" is part of the problem. If someone genuinely believes that they have changed sex that can be a symptom of psychosis, ie. the person is psychotic and that is just one of the symptoms they might evidence.

For example, Andrew Burns / Tiffany Scott (aka Obi Wan Kenobi/Mighty Almighty)

https://transcrimeuk.com/2017/10/31/andrew-burns-tiffany-scott/

Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:31

Is that the Grayson Perry post that has been deleted? The one where he describes the reasons and motivations ( including sexual) behind cross dressing?And where I mention Andrea Long Chu discussing how pornograophy is what turned him trans?

i though we were having a genuine conversation -I didn't realise that you were seeking to report honest posts ( perhaps it was not you who reported?)

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:32

See the 'trans widows' thread if you are unaware of the sexual motivations and obsessions that have taken hold of many men.

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Original poster
RebelliousCow · 20/09/2023 15:35

PorcelinaV · 20/09/2023 15:17

So the answer to that question is maybe some do, but plenty of others don't. And even then, the some that do may eventually desist when reality creeps in and can no longer be denied or avoided.

OK.

It would certainly be interesting if we could know exactly what is going on in some late transitioning cases. Is it sexually motivated? Can that genuinely turn some people trans? Are they lying and just somehow committed to playing that role?

You've been posting for years....i recognise your username. You must have read the many many threads that deal with this?

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