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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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26
Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 22:36

Political lesbian is a term with a long history of use.

The current idea that sexuality or sexual attraction is always inborn, innate, and unchangeable, as a kind of supposedly known fact, is something that only became an unquestionable assumption since, I would say maybe beginning in the 1980s, and really solidifying in the public mind in the 90s, as part of a particular line of argument for the social acceptance of gay and lesbian people. But it's not a scientific statement. even if many people feel describes their experience of their sexual desire.

Before that, however, it was common to find a much wider variety of viewpoints on that topic, including within the gay community. The focus on the language tended much more about what people did, rather than specifically why they did it. Functionally, a political lesbian was only having sex with women, whatever the reason.

There's a certain sense to this approach, given that we really don't know what is in anyone's head, and the variability of human sexual feelings and emotions, and even the varying quality of individual sexual desire, especially over a lifetime. When you get too much into trying to describe an exact individual experience, you end up with a gazillion different sexualities and the current situation with the flag for every particular way of thinking and feeling about sex.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:37

334bu · 16/09/2023 13:00

The % of convicts convicted of sexual offences does not show that TW are disproportionately violent towards or sexual predators of women compared to men. It’s the wrong calculation to show whether that is the case or not.

So what is the correct calculation?

Convicted male offenders - 19% sex offenders.
Convicted transwomen -47% sex offenders
Convicted female offenders - 2% sex offenders

In what way does the above not show that men who identify as women are not disproportionately sexually violent?

As I have said, repeatedly, the usual measure is offending rates calculated on a whole population basis.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:38

Clymene · 16/09/2023 13:14

Do you have any stats for that? Because as far as I know , particular ethnicities or religions are not over represented in the convicted sex offender population. Whereas transwomen are.

Or are you proposing we don't discuss facts?

Where is the evidence that transwomen are over-represented? % of convicts doesn’t show this. It needs to be offending rates based on whole population.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 22:43

Bosky · 16/09/2023 21:56

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

That is not what we are looking at.

What we are looking at is Mary Harrington's article, which asks:

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders?"

https://reactionaryfeminist.substack.com/p/how-many-sex-offenders?r=clsg2

Apologies Signalbox and OldCrone - I see now that you have dealt with the question of "whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders"!

The answer being, "YES".

Signalbox:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4896553-mary-harrington-why-are-so-many-transgender-prisoners-sex-offenders?page=2&reply=129232460

OldCrone:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4896553-mary-harrington-why-are-so-many-transgender-prisoners-sex-offenders?page=2&reply=129232765

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:44

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 13:32

Of course it does...have you ever had a baby?

Yes I have had babies. There is no such thing as maternal instinct. We are not ruled by biology. Any child of an abusive mother can tell you this.

The biology makes men violent mythos excuses them their VAWG, and part of this mythos which says that biology makes women instinctual nurturers of babies, robs us of all credit for the sacrifices we make for our babies no matter what we suffer for it.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 22:46

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:38

Where is the evidence that transwomen are over-represented? % of convicts doesn’t show this. It needs to be offending rates based on whole population.

wrt the question of "whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders".

The answer is "YES".

Signalbox:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4896553-mary-harrington-why-are-so-many-transgender-prisoners-sex-offenders?page=2&reply=129232460

OldCrone:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4896553-mary-harrington-why-are-so-many-transgender-prisoners-sex-offenders?page=2&reply=129232765

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:47

@Signalbox
Even accounting for slight variations/ discrepancies in my figures you can see that TW are nowhere near in line with female offending rates.

Of course not. Studies have shown in Sweden, US and U.K. that TW tend to offend in similar patterns and rates as men. Reference my first post.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 22:52

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:30

@Bosky
Yea, think it is quite telling that you had to go back 43yrs to 1980 to be able to cherry pick a study that implies menstrual hormones make women violent. This is not a recent study at all and is outdated

Violent crime and the menstrual cycle
d'Orbán & J Dalton
Psychological Medicine , Volume 10 , Issue 2 , May 1980 , pp. 353 - 359”

I think it is quite telling that, yet again, you make assertions but do not cite evidence or provide links to research.

The fact that a study is old does not automatically make it "outdated". It is "outdated" if more recent studies show a different result and are at least as reliable. Please cite them because it would be helpful to know what they are.

You have still not provided any evidence to support your frankly bizarre claim that "No matter what hormones are fluctuating, violence is still a deliberate choice made by men to exert power".

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:53

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 14:27

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

OK, I've done this. I've used the census data from here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/census and the figures quoted by @Signalbox at 10.57 today.

From the census:
Total number of males 18 and over in England and Wales = 23.2 million
Total number of 'transwomen' in England and wales = 48000

From Signalbox's prison figures:
13234 male sex offenders in prison
76 transwomen sex offenders in prison

So I have calculated that about 0.06% of men are currently imprisoned for sex offences and about 0.16% of males who identify as transwomen are currently imprisoned for sex offences.

This means that transwomen are nearly 3 times as likely as other men to be sex offenders.

All the data is at the links so you can check my calculations.

That leads back to my suspicion that paedophiles are faking being TW for self-preservation reasons and why we cannot allow self-ID but need court appointed psychologists to assess any male who comes out as a TW after arrest.

This is what I think is skewing the figures, especially when you consider that most of the difference between the two is actually pedophiles and not those who have sexually assaulted women.

Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 22:54

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:44

Yes I have had babies. There is no such thing as maternal instinct. We are not ruled by biology. Any child of an abusive mother can tell you this.

The biology makes men violent mythos excuses them their VAWG, and part of this mythos which says that biology makes women instinctual nurturers of babies, robs us of all credit for the sacrifices we make for our babies no matter what we suffer for it.

Your logical leaps here are pretty extreme.

Mother cats normally lick their newborns, eat the placenta, and nurse them when they are born. Every once in a while, you get one who doesn't, who will ignore them. Similarly other animals, guided by maternal instinct, they care for their young, except occasionally when one ignores, drives away, or even kills their offspring instead.

No one says the existence of these instances means that there is no such thing as maternal instinct in cats.

DO you honestly think that if there is any variation in behaviour, it proves that something isn't instinctive?

This is the kind of garbage that comes from bad sociology courses, with teachers who don't know a darn thing about biology.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 22:55

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:53

That leads back to my suspicion that paedophiles are faking being TW for self-preservation reasons and why we cannot allow self-ID but need court appointed psychologists to assess any male who comes out as a TW after arrest.

This is what I think is skewing the figures, especially when you consider that most of the difference between the two is actually pedophiles and not those who have sexually assaulted women.

How do you "fake being trans"? What is "trans"?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:56

@IamAporcupine
Not in apes though
Er, Bonobos are matriarchal. Not even all apes have the “males fight for females what they dominate” sexist trope we’ve been fed.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 23:02

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:53

That leads back to my suspicion that paedophiles are faking being TW for self-preservation reasons and why we cannot allow self-ID but need court appointed psychologists to assess any male who comes out as a TW after arrest.

This is what I think is skewing the figures, especially when you consider that most of the difference between the two is actually pedophiles and not those who have sexually assaulted women.

"No true Scotsman . . ."

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-no-true-scotsman-fallacy-250339

What Is the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy?

What is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy and how is this fallacy committed? Explore the topic and discover examples of this type of argument.

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-no-true-scotsman-fallacy-250339

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:06

Bosky · 16/09/2023 22:52

I think it is quite telling that, yet again, you make assertions but do not cite evidence or provide links to research.

The fact that a study is old does not automatically make it "outdated". It is "outdated" if more recent studies show a different result and are at least as reliable. Please cite them because it would be helpful to know what they are.

You have still not provided any evidence to support your frankly bizarre claim that "No matter what hormones are fluctuating, violence is still a deliberate choice made by men to exert power".

You and I both know there have been dozens of studies between now and 1980 on the causes of violence. I see no need to post them. They are there. You have seen them.

I really don’t think that it is a bizarre claim that violence is a choice, as our entire legal and justice system is based on this widely known and accepted fact.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:08

Bosky · 16/09/2023 22:55

How do you "fake being trans"? What is "trans"?

The same way you fake a mental illness after murdering or assaulting someone. Are you seriously asserting that humans never ever lie to save their skins?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:09

Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 22:54

Your logical leaps here are pretty extreme.

Mother cats normally lick their newborns, eat the placenta, and nurse them when they are born. Every once in a while, you get one who doesn't, who will ignore them. Similarly other animals, guided by maternal instinct, they care for their young, except occasionally when one ignores, drives away, or even kills their offspring instead.

No one says the existence of these instances means that there is no such thing as maternal instinct in cats.

DO you honestly think that if there is any variation in behaviour, it proves that something isn't instinctive?

This is the kind of garbage that comes from bad sociology courses, with teachers who don't know a darn thing about biology.

Humans are not cats. That’s not garbage.

HenryCavillsWife · 16/09/2023 23:10

I didn't understand this sentence in that article:

But that’s not what we see. Analysisis_ shows, for example, that out of the total population of sex offenders registered as women in 2019, trans-identified males made up around 38% of the total: definitely a higher figure than you’d expect if this were a representative proportion of trans individuals, let alone of women.*

Earlier in the piece she says that the total number of female (actually female) sex offenders is 150. So are trans women making up 38% of the 150..?

HenryCavillsWife · 16/09/2023 23:11

Sorry! I meant I didn't understand that whole paragraph. The one starting with the bold sentence.

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 23:13

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:09

Humans are not cats. That’s not garbage.

Apparently some humans ID as cats. I wonder if those people are faking it or if they have a genuine cat identity.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:19

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 23:13

Apparently some humans ID as cats. I wonder if those people are faking it or if they have a genuine cat identity.

They may be deluded, as in genuinely believe that they are rather than knowingly lying but the human brain is not a cat brain so it is not possible.

The problem with woman vs man, is there is no such thing as a male or female brain. So it’s more complex than cat vs human brain.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 23:29

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:06

You and I both know there have been dozens of studies between now and 1980 on the causes of violence. I see no need to post them. They are there. You have seen them.

I really don’t think that it is a bizarre claim that violence is a choice, as our entire legal and justice system is based on this widely known and accepted fact.

Your assertions have zero credibility unless you cite supporting evidence and, correct me if I am wrong, but so far you expect us to take your word as gospel.

It is a bizarre claim that the legal and justice system does not recognise culpability and mitigation:

Culpability is assessed with reference to the offender’s role, level of intention and/or premeditation and the extent and sophistication of planning.

  • The court should balance these factors to reach a fair assessment of the offender’s overall culpability in all the circumstances of the case and the offender.
  • The mere presence of a factor that is inherent in the offence should not be used in assessing culpability.
  • Deliberate or gratuitous violence or damage to property, over and above what is needed to carry out the offence will normally indicate a higher level of culpability.
  • For offences where there is no requirement for the offender to have any level of intention, recklessness, negligence, dishonesty, knowledge, understanding or foresight for the offence to be made out, the range of culpability may be inferred from the circumstances of the offence as follows:
Deliberate - intentional act or omission Reckless - acted or failed to act regardless of the foreseeable risk Negligent - failed to take steps to guard against the act or omission
  • Low/no culpability - act or omission with none of the above featuresFor offences that require some level of culpability (eg intention, recklessness or knowledge) to be made out, the range of culpability will be narrower. Relevant factors may typically include but are not limited to:
High level of planning/ sophistication/ leading role Some planning/ significant role Little or no planning/ minor role

These models of assessing culpability will not be applicable to all offences.

Factors reducing seriousness or reflecting personal mitigation
(Factors are not listed in any particular order and are not exhaustive)

  • No previous convictions or no relevant/recent convictions
  • Good character and/or exemplary conduct
  • Remorse
  • Self-reporting
  • Cooperation with the investigation/ early admissions
  • Little or no planning
  • The offender was in a lesser or subordinate role if acting with others / performed limited role under direction
  • Involved through coercion, intimidation or exploitation
  • Limited awareness or understanding of the offence
  • Little or no financial gain
  • Delay since apprehension
  • Activity originally legitimate
  • Age and/or lack of maturity
  • Sole or primary carer for dependent relatives
  • Physical disability or serious medical condition requiring urgent, intensive or long-term treatment
  • Mental disorder or learning disability
  • Determination and/or demonstration of steps having been taken to address addiction or offending behaviour
More info here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/overarching-guides/crown-court/item/general-guideline-overarching-principles/
Rudderneck · 17/09/2023 00:13

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:09

Humans are not cats. That’s not garbage.

Humans are animals. We share quite a lot in terms of our biology with cats. The same kinds of hormones, nervous system, etc.

If you want to argue that somehow human beings, of all animals, are uniquely free of instinctual drives and physiological influences, you will need to show some pretty stiff evidence, because it's an incredible claim.

IamAporcupine · 17/09/2023 03:02

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 22:56

@IamAporcupine
Not in apes though
Er, Bonobos are matriarchal. Not even all apes have the “males fight for females what they dominate” sexist trope we’ve been fed.

Thanks for making me read on the subject

Interestingly, it's been shown that at least part of the social behaviour in female bonobos is driven by hormones too, oxytocin in this case.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36214311/

More to the point, it seems that the differences in reproductive strategy (reduced mating competition and agression) seen in male bonobos (as opposed to chimps) is associated with differences in the levels of testosterone production during their lifespan.
https://evolutionaryanthropology.duke.edu/sites/evolutionaryanthropology.duke.edu/files/site-images/different-ontogenetic-patterns-of-testosterone-production-wobber-et-al-2013.original.pdf

I am not primatologist, so happy to be told (by one!) that this is not relevant.

Anyway, there was a question that you didn't answer. I'll copy it again here

GuanYinShanxi: Yes, we do hear many people repeating the old mythos of testosterone making you aggressive. They believe it to be true, so they see only what they believe. They may even feel they have license to act more aggressively because they take testosterone.

If you do not think this (ie the increased aggression and sex drive in transmen) is the effect of testosterone - are you saying that, over two/three decades of socialisation as a female can be changed by 6 months of 'socialisation as male'? Or are you just saying that it is a placebo effect?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36214311

OldCrone · 17/09/2023 05:09

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:08

The same way you fake a mental illness after murdering or assaulting someone. Are you seriously asserting that humans never ever lie to save their skins?

Well, yes, we've already discussed the fact that some men who claim to believe that they are women are lying.

But when a man who claims to believe he is a woman has committed a crime, why does it matter whether or not that man really believes he's a woman? He's still a man no matter what deluded thoughts he has to the contrary.

Or are you just saying that people who truly believe they are the opposite sex are mentally ill and should be treated accordingly?

And I notice you didn’t answer Bosky's second question: What is "trans"?

OldCrone · 17/09/2023 05:20

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 23:19

They may be deluded, as in genuinely believe that they are rather than knowingly lying but the human brain is not a cat brain so it is not possible.

The problem with woman vs man, is there is no such thing as a male or female brain. So it’s more complex than cat vs human brain.

Surely it's just as simple. If there is no such thing as a male or female brain then nobody can claim to have one or the other - we all just have a human brain.

What do you believe is going on with someone who genuinely believes they are the opposite sex? Are they just as deluded as the people who genuinely believe they have a cat identity?

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