If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Look, I can't stop people breaking the social contract (single sex toilets) - if a transwoman actually passes then by definition no-one will notice them in the women's toilet.

If they want to lie about their sex to access spaces that are not for them then that's on their conscience.

That doesn't mean that the less successful transwoman gets a pass too. Sad for them, but women have the right to challenge men in their toilets.

Just because my mate doesn't get caught pinching a lipstick from Boots doesn't mean I get to whine when the security guard catches me doing the same thing.

Nope. I'll just c&p that.

If you think you'll upset women because you look like a man, use the men's toilets.

If you think you pass as a woman, use the men's toilets.

And I'll add as you missed it:

Use the men's toilets.

Tell you what. We'll ignore the mastectomy scars, because that's just a bit of a giveaway.

But even aside from that, they've got such a feminine face, and female hips that at the very least you're going to be second guessing yourself. And I'm just going on static pictures here. I haven't seen this person walk, or heard them speak yet.

And what about the other way around?

If you dont pass as a man, use the ladies toilets
if you pass as a man, use the ladies toilets

Just... use the ladies toilets?

Or is it not about being GC, but actually about people who look like men?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LA0L6-YsX8M

Actually sounds like a bloke

I'm sure you're not stupid but Ive obviously not made myself clear @ASGIRC

So I'll try again.

If you're a woman who has taken so much T you pass as a man - use the men's toilets.

If you're a man - regardless of passing/not passing - use the men's toilets.

Very simple.

I started a similar thread to this. It got horribly misrepresented by India Willoughby on Twitter. Wonder what will happen to this one...

OP this was the other thread in case you're interested. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4844407-what-the-gender-critical-movement-is-trying-to-achieve

No, so youve just confirmed what I thought.

This is not about being gender critical at all. It is just about a dislike/distrust of men.

This is all I needed to know, thank you.

@ASGIRC are you asking us to pretend that male violence is not a thing?

@Clymene 's suggestion is sensible.

Laverne is a man and Eliot is a woman. In Eliot's case I'd strongly advise her to carry on using the women's loos, cos she is tiny and very vulnerable. Laverne can use the bloke's loos like other men.

Alternatively we can have third spaces for people who feel they really can't use the loo of their own sex.

Hello @AmaListening I'm relatively new to this world, after being an ally as someone with a colourful group of friends, including TW and TM.

When I read posts from certain people (@ArabeIIaScott @MrsTerryPratchettespecially) I've come along way with my thinking.
Both the women above have really made me think and admit to myself and openly to my trans friends, how wrong we've been about the movement. And we really have.

I think what MrsTP said nailed it about the option of a 3rd space, as more people identify as trans, we as society need to make Allowances to grow with those numbers, ensuring that we keep women and children safe.
Just because I happen to have lovely TW pals, doesn't mean I should have been so dismissive of other women wanting to keep my friends out of their spaces, when I was.

A lot of shady fuckers are using the trans umbrella to do harm to women and kids, this is devastating to the lovely non predatory trans community and its why we do need to have a overall shift in more spaces.

It is very humiliating to say to someone who has had years of hormones, surgery, depression, self loathing and all the rest of the horrors that come with gender dysmorphia, "sorry Stephanie, you and your fake fanny of 10 years can't come in here because Keith in the wig won't stay out", but sadly, the option to either upset someone or allow a predator in a dress access to a woman or child, is abhorrent.
Transfolk do deserve respect, kindness, love and to live as authentically as they can and its a shame that means to an extent, segregation from the sex they have been so desperate to belong too, but ensuring safety of children and women, has to trump the feelings of others, sad as that is.

I will die on a hill that sending a transwoman into a male prison is absolutely not something that should ever happen, but nor should they be sent to a womens one. In tact or not.
If we can protect hideous abusers by giving them special wings, we absolutely can find a place for trans folk to have the same safety guaranteed.
However, that said, I'm sure that'll be a massively abused free for all mess when those who will abuse any system, abuse this one.

I see many transpeople now really kicking off when not being given access to womens spaces, because it is exclusionary, but if unisex is offered and they're still complaining, I have to ask why. Why do you need to be around women at their most vulnerable?
Frankly, they don't. My friends (one god love them, does not pass as a woman, the other does, other looks very much like a bloke with lippy) always use the unisex or disabled toilets, private changing rooms if ever needed etc, they're horrified at the behaviour of the new breed of TW, because they aren't helping any cause with that behaviour. They're just being damn entitled at best, scarily predatory at worst.

The sport thing needs a 3rd option also. Being trans is undergoing it's moment of liberation, then let's work with that and be proud to support people who are trans to pave the way for their own categories. Being trans as its own thing should be celebrated, if you've had years of therapy, surgery and hormones to live authentically as the person you were born to be, you're your own category. Lets protect that as opposed to pushing them into a box they don't belong. Let's give them freedom and respect and the handhold to make changes, without allowing the safety of the vulnerable become a complete minefield.

Surely the likes of Eliot Page shouldn't compete in women's sports? Testosterone would give a huge advantage in certain sports (eg boxing). Has anyone a solution to this?

I think it helps to replace the word 'trans' with 'people with gender dysphoria'. It's much easier to understand that people with gender dysphoria should be treated sympathetically, but their needs should not override other people's.

I think the solution is don’t take drugs if you want to compete in sports. 🙄

This is not about being gender critical at all. It is just about a dislike/distrust of men

No. It's about the most basic fucking risk assessment.
Males as a sex class are responsible for almost all the sexual assaults and murders with the majority of victims being female.
So ALL men stay the fuck out of all FEMALE ONLY spaces because we don't know which are the bad ones. Wearing a dress or make up or even taking hormones doesn't suddenly make a man harmless or benign, as is shown every day by TRA'S threats to women who say no.

Transmen do not pose that threat to men because they are female.

Imagine a group of men thinking it's their 'human right' to access all spaces where women and children are at their most
vulnerable. Kind of proves they are men tbh. They have the power and privilege as men to simply disregard women's sex based rights and protections on a whim whilst being applauded for it.

I really want so called “trans people” and their allies to stop bleating on about being the most marginalised and vulnerable in society. They will never be the opposite sex so should stop demanding GRCs (,Males)entry in to women and particularly lesbian groups or where even one woman objects and says no. They should stop demanding surgery , especially young women/ girls. I have every sympathy with people with mental illnesses and other conditions but none for this new breed of misogynists who have never shown any consideration towards actual women. Respect that no means no.

I’d like the extremes of the movement simply to recognise me as a distinct, autonomous being.

For them to ask me to accept they TWAW in order to accommodate trans people’s perception of themselves is to ask me to redefine myself as something I neither understand nor share - a gender identity.

For them to ask me to accept that TWAW to accommodate trans people’s perception of themselves is to ask me to accept my political, social & cultural recategorisation - and thereby give up certain rights that were contingent on my prior categorisation, designed to mitigate the disadvantages presented by my biology.

And to ask me to accept TW in female-only spaces is to ask me to perceive each & every TW in the image in which he perceives - or simply chooses to describe - himself; to replace my own perception of reality with his (the use of the male pronoun is important here in order to make this point).

Please think about this. If anything is negating a person’s autonomy in this whole, agonising debate, it’s this. Because this isn’t just a matter of courtesy. If it were, it’s still a huge ask - but it’s not. It’s asking women to disregard natural instinct & objective knowledge - that he’s far stronger than me; that he has the capacity to kill me - simply on an individual male’s say-so: “I say I’m a woman, therefore it’s ok.”

The last time I got into a lift with a strange man alone, I told myself I was silly to worry. He spent the journey deliberately intimidating me. Body language only, subtle… but unambiguous. Throughout that interminable period, he made sure that I knew, quite simply, that whatever happened to me next was up to him. Yes, I could try various things - struggle, try to get to the emergency stop behind him, yell. But, really, what chance would I have? He knew, & I knew, that if he, this total stranger, whose mind I couldn’t read, whose motives I could never know, wanted to hurt me - he could. If he wanted to do worse - he could. It was that simple. Up to him. Not a matter of 50:50 or even 70:30; not a case of I’d give as good as I got. He had all the power, I had, effectively, none.

Every single time that a woman enters an enclosed space with an unknown male, this is an act of faith on her part, in which she plays the odds that he won’t choose to hurt her, or worse.

And the odds may be very good, but the stakes? The stakes are bloody high.

I’ve never got into a lift alone with a man since. I live abroad, go out at night, walk home alone - I’m confident, I don’t limit myself. But why take this extra, unnecessary risk?

More than anything else, I want men in general to understand this. Most of us don’t live our lives in fear, but women must live with this unceasing, necessary awareness of our own vulnerability.

To those who say, But men are more often the victims of violence!: They’re also more likely to instigate it, & more able to resist. Women’s experience of male aggression is as prospective prey as opposed to prospective rival (however ill-matched). It’s different.

To those who say, you’re exaggerating: Look at Everyone’s Invited, & rape & femicide stats. Ask yourself how we can possibly know when a man may escalate or not.

To those who say, I couldn’t live in fear like you do: I truly don’t! I think a good analogy for this is the hazard perception test for drivers. I’ve driven across a continent & loved it, all the while continually, subconsciously alert to the parked car, the running kid, the red light. Similarly, I live my life well, but women do, instinctually, register (click!) the lone man, the (click!) dark underpass, the (3 points!) rustling bush to a degree that, I suspect, anecdotally, at least, would be unrecognisable to many men.

To those who say I’m reducing women to their biology, making victims of them, or - what was it? - fetishising female weakness?!: I don’t believe that acknowledging & accommodating the realities of biological difference is an admission of weakness or inferiority, or equivalent to defining women by their bodies. I in fact wonder if assumptions that it us say more about the preconceptions of the person interpreting it that way.

In summary - I exist, too.

Doping isn't allowed in sport. The non-binary footballer who appeared at the World Cup does not take testosterone.

If you choose to take testosterone then you do so knowing that some doors will be closed to you.

They should be banned from schools and urging children to transition. They should not be allowed to target schools with their ideology.

@ASGIRC

This is not about being gender critical at all. It is just about a dislike/distrust of men.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Yes! Top of the class and a gold star for you. I don't trust men and I have good reason for that mistrust. Women's spaces are women only because I'm not the only person who have recognised that many men are a risk to women. Many of those people are men.

ETA I do like men. I have a son. He's awesome.

@MsRosley I agree with that in principle, but (only in my opinion) many transfolk coming through don't have GD.

I'm finding friends of mine with relatives who in their later years seem to want to wear womens clothes, I've no issue with it, but it's not because they've lived a life of hell hiding their GD etc, it seems to be related to either fetishism, breakdowns, or bandwagon mentality.

I asked one particular person I'd grown up knowing, my friends uncle, how long he'd felt he wasn't living in the right body etc and he was looking at me like I was speaking in alien. He literally just fancies dressing differently now, no shame in that, I don't disrespect how he chooses to dress at all, but he isn't seeking medical /MH support, he just wants to be a new name and use the same toilet as women.
That doesn't fill me with confidence it's GD. Absolute mind fuzz, navigating what's what these days.

I worry for those with GD for so many reasons now and this huge parade of letting bad eggs into their community with open arms, only acceptance and no due diligence, is not a wise move.

All our lovely husbands can't go in the women's loo either and it's also because "Keith with the bad wig won't stay out".
What's the difference? What makes the naice bloke in a dress a better fit for women's loos?
It's not disrespectful to keep him out no matter how old and kind his artificial vagina is. And we don't care how naice or old his coochie is. That's for his partner to know.

I think transwomen should use unisex facilities as a basic principle, for their own and everyone's safety. That said, those androphilic transwomen who genuinely do "pass" very well, have always tended to use women's bathrooms and changing rooms in practice without being noticed or registered (and since they're unlikely to pose any threat to real natal women, I'm not massively bothered by this). My main concern is that I don't want women's facilities being used by the AGP transwomen and by men who are not actually trans in any way but who have dodgy reasons for entering women's bathrooms and are chancing it because they know that in the current climate it is hard for women to challenge the presence of men without being accused of bigotry.

This is not about being gender critical at all. It is just about a dislike/distrust of men

has it occurred to you yet that you don’t understand what being gender critical means?