If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

You know enough about this subject to come to MN and FWR and start a thread ... but not enough to know the answers to the questions you're asking?
Try harder next time. 🙄

The Laverne Cox question is a red herring—LC is a popular celebrity. Does it seem unfair to expect someone who looks like LC to use the men’s? Sure, but the question isn’t about LC. It’s about all the men in the world. There isn’t a separate rule for elite people that pass. If we have self-ID, any man can go into any facility any time. No thank you.

Also, I’ve admitted this seems a bit hard on LC. The thing is, and it seems ridiculous to have to say this, women are allowed to support their own rights. We aren’t morally obligated to put men’s rights ahead of our own.

Thanks @Lwrenagain

Quite.

A little thought experiment for the OP if they ever return... Where do they place all the transmen sex offenders? We hear every week about a new very serious violent trans woman offender and where the authorities think it is right to place them. Tumbleweed and crickets about the hordes of transmen there must be committing violent and sexual crimes.

Curious.

I think broadly speaking they can do whatever they want without trying to enforce their ideology/way of being on other people.

Particularly with trans women it is extremely aggressive at the moment, like an extension of the patriarchy, biological women’s rights are to be sidelined in favour of the man who wishes to be a woman.

I find it particularly concerning that children and young adults are being so caught up in this. Rather than being told to love themselves and to be confident as a man/woman behaving however they feel naturally and dressing how they’d like…. They’re being told to reject their sex if they don’t fit in with stereotypical norms, to take damaging medications and to mutilate their bodies.

I think it’s quite dangerous and personally do not feel as safe as I once did in women’s spaces as predatory men will feign being trans to gain access.

What I would have is that gender dysphoria is seen as the medical issue it is and that people are properly assessed and supported with it.

This is the only way I can see of avoiding people who aren’t actually trans, who are being unfairly influenced by the media, from being permanently harmed. While ensuring genuine trans people get the help they need and access to services (that aren’t overwhelmed with people who shouldn’t be there).

As for toilets, use mixed gender or disabled - women shouldn’t be put at risk of sexual assault. And I’m sorry but physically in their DNA trans women are male; their bone structure, musculature, development is male and there is nothing that can change that. They shouldn’t be competing in sport against biological women because they have unfair advantage.

It’s really very simple. You live your life without encroaching on the rights of others. Stop expecting us to capitulate to your demands. Stop acting as though you’re the most oppressed ever in the world. In short: see life beyond your myopic worldview.

And women are quite right to distrust men (nothing to do with disliking them). Men (however they identify) commit 99% of sexual offences. And that is all the reason needed to exclude then from places where women are vulnerable.

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Trans people can do whatever they like, as long as it doesn’t encroach on my right to women-only spaces.

names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

I’ll call anyone by whatever name they have chosen for themselves. You can use whatever pronouns you like but you can’t insist I talk ABOUT you - i.e. not even in your presence - as “she” if you’re a he, sorry. (Oh, and I am NOT a “cis” woman, because I have no gender identity. “Woman” will do nicely. Thank you.) Mutilating surgery should be banned for all minors, as should experimental puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones - basic safeguarding, in other words. I don’t give a shiny shite what other people choose to wear. Trans people can date/have sex with any consenting adult they like. The only “social spaces” I want to keep exclusively women-only are sports, toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons, hospital wards, etc. As long as I get a woman health-care professional for my smear test when I ask, I really don’t care what anyone else does for a living.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

My concern is the affirming affect on vulnerable, gullible, malleable teenagers. Page looks and sounds horribly depressed, I saw an interview where Page smiled only once - when the interviewer told Page they were brave and inspiring (or somesuch), hardly an endorsement for “trans joy”. I don’t know who Cox is and don’t care enough to google.

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Given that puberty “cures” the majority of gender dysphoria (80+%), I’d ban all blockers and cross-sex hormones in under-16s. I’d prefer under-18s tbh but 16 is old enough to consent to sex, contraception and marriage. In my ideal GC imaginary world there would be NO detransitioners, because NOBODY would be harried down the transition route after one or two counselling sessions. Men, however they identify, will keep out of women-only spaces, just as all good men do already, today, right now. Children would be taught that sex is binary and biological, and that it is impossible to change sex.

None of this is radical stuff, @AmaListening .

It's not my business what they do.

I believe in protecting female spaces, the rest is nothing to do with me.

This with bells on.

Also what @Ereshkigalangcleg said - that our concerns are recognised and acknowledged and not, as we are so often are accused of being jealous of them doing woman better.

Ok, I’ll bite. They could wear whatever clothes they wanted to, and do whatever they want with their own bodies. As for toilets, changing rooms, sports etc, they could use the third spaces they campaigned for. I, and I’m sure most GC women, would be right there beside them, campaigning for them

The notable thing about your post is your underlying, probably unconscious, attitude to women and girls.

You seem incredulous in your ‘what should trans people do’ question, yet it seems unproblematic to you that what women and girls should do is give up the rights to win their own sports, compete safely in their own sports, give up places on sports teams, not be safe in prisons, refuges, changing rooms, not have privacy or dignity or the right not to be naked around naked, and so on.

Why are you not questioning why women should have to ‘do’ all that?

If she were an athlete or wanted to be a competitive sportsperson, how would she go about that - or would she just not?

Some sports are changing or already have the categories of female and open so she could compete in the open. That is how it is already so it’s not some fictional GC world. I don’t get what’s unfair about that situation? Also I don’t get why we’re supposed to care that some male can’t compete in the women’s because they’re male yet the majority of the female population can’t because they wouldn’t be able to get a place either. If you’re short you’re not going to be a basketball player or rower etc

At the most fundamental level, what I wish they would do is understand that it's impossible to change sex. And although they are free to dress and look however they choose, doing so, does not change their sex.

The sexes are different.

One sex is larger, stronger, and commits both the vast majority of violent crime and virtually all sex crime.

I can supply the stats if you need, these are very well established facts.

Colour me utterly shocked the OP hasn’t been back. Are the screen shots on twitter yet?

For all the hooha around Laverne Cox 'passing', whatever that means. I watched them in a programme the other night. Apart from being shit at acting, walked like a man, talked like a man, massive hands and feet. And that was probably with the kindest of production angles and lighting. And Elliot Page is still a woman. Could not pass as a man in a month of Sundays.
I don't want them to do anything but stay in their lane. Don't expect me to go along with a lie. Not going to.

The Blacklist? I thought the same.

CBA to read the thread (answer is everyone uses the spaces, services and sport categories for their sex, or they don’t want to do that they campaign for additional third spaces and categories).

just posting to add some illustrations really:

This is Laverne Cox with Chase Strangio (a transman, so biologically female).

And Elliot Page next to Jennifer Garner, so both are biologically female.

As far as I can tell from an internet search, Page is three inches shorter than Strangio.

Should Elliot Page compete in the male category?* if OP thinks yes, then OP must’ve been huffing glue.

*Elliot Page cannot compete in the female category because Elliot Page takes a banned PED (Performance Enhancing Drug) thus Elliot Page needs a transman category because playing against Laverne in the men’s would be ludicrous (and not safe).

It was indeed.

This.

This is an excellent thread full of simple, rational and measured responses. I'm not sure it's played out in the way the OP wanted. I hope it's given some readers new insights into the subject.

I think it is a ridiculous question.

Facts - women have fought for same sex spaces for safe guarding reasons and fair play.

Safety
Biological men are physically different from women. This is because biological men can rape and biological women can’t. This is because the average biological man can overpower 90% of biological women. And the average biological woman is physically weaker than 90% of biological men.

Dignity and religion
Women have single sex spaces for dignity, comfort and religious beliefs.
Not all biological women menstruate but only biological women menstruate. Not all religious women are required to be single sex spaces (such as toilets and changing rooms) but some women are.

Sport
On average biological males have huge physical advantage in sport over biological females. This means that the fastest, strongest in any category at any time will be a biological male. Records showing winning timings in athletics, cycling, swimming? Football, etc. are there to see.

So, my question to OP is;
If you believe in Trans/gender ideology what should women actually do?

Should religious women just not go to public toilets. -This is happening
Should women take in additional risk in changing rooms. - This is happening
Should women in prison take on additional risk of take and assault- This has been happening
Should women just accept that middling biological males take the place of exceptional biological women on sports teams? Lose scholarships and life opportunities? -This is happening

What should women actually do?

It’s quite hard to find a red carpet/party pic of Elliot-era Page with a bloke, so here’s an older one, plus one of Laverne Cox with Miley Cyrus and Tyler Ford (both female, although I think Ford self described as ‘agender’?) and one of Cox from a Time Magazine party.

I post these to point out that you need some sort of belief or faith in the nebulous concept of Gendef Identity in order to believe Page is a man and Cox is a woman.

Anyone without that particular belief just sees them both as their birth sex, but with a gender nonconforming presentation.

I don’t mind what people wear, I just don’t subscribe to their belief system (the Pope’s hat is rather splendid, but not splendid enough to convert me to Catholicism).