If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

@gleeclubforever

Can you explain how Cox "lives as a woman"?

There are a million options to choose from but I'll list a few

1. An Australian One Nation 80 yr old woman

2. An Innuit 19 year old woman

3. A 35 year old Grandmother in a slum in Bangladesh, living off scraps of food from the dump

4. a steel-worker woman at Teeside

5. A BAME care worker woman

6. a porn star

7. a white middle class woman who likes pearls

8. a 35 year old woman with HIV in a Cape Town shanty

9. a woman with learning disabilities who stacks shelves at LidL

10. a woman in Afghanistan who is coerced in to having her baby daughter undergo FGM

So..

Which woman do trans identifying males choose to "live as" when you say they're "living their lives as a woman"

I'd venture it's between 6 and 7
BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LIVING AS A WOMAN

It's all and will ever be about clothes

And obviously TW should stay out of women’s sport

iI’ll use whatever names they choose but not pronouns. I use sex based pronouns. I value my own comfort and right to speak the truth above the feelings and desire for validation of trans people

I think rape victims and women of certain religions would be uncomfortable with this. And I'd prioritise them over TW.

This. Why do people like Cox and.Page have such high opinions of themselves that they think the rest of us have to Cowtow to believe their reality?

Brilliant post. So true. I hate that this is actually considered a legal test written into British law. So demeaning.

Laverne Cox read a letter from trans prisoner Synthia China Blast complaining about his long incarceration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/laverne-cox-synthia-china-blastnn_5691789

Cox since asked for the video to be removed but the fact is that Cox's first instinct was to feel sorry for the man who tortured, raped and murdered a 13 year old girl because her killer, Luis Morales, assumed a trans identity. I suspect this is because Cox's first instinct was trans first, crime after.

But I cannot think of a single instance where a high profile woman has used their public platform to garner sympathy for a child rapist and murderer.

For me, ideally, everyone would realise that if they are uncomfortable with their sex, it is because of the stereotypes associated with them, not because they are in the wrong body.

But realistically, they can believe what they want, but they cannot demand everybody else buys into it and makes concessions.

in this debate, it's important to seperate the individuals experiencing gender dysphoria (who should be treated with respect and kindness just like everyone else and be able to access medical services they need) and the politicisation of trans issues. I don't feel the politicisation helps anyone including trans individuals. there also needs to be better legal frameworks regarding treatments offered to children, addressing other pre existing mental health issues rather than jumping the gun with surgery/puberty blockers. additionally protection of single sex spaces especially for women.

Is this supposed to be a gotcha because Laverne has breast implants and wears lipstick?

Laverne is male and should be using the men’s or the unisex and compete in the men’s category in sport.

it’s really not that difficult

Nailed it.

Oh don’t be daft OP…

In answer to the original question -

— dress and act however they please
— use changing rooms/toilets/rape crisis centres/sports facilities that are mixed sex or match their actual sex, not gender

Beyond that, I don’t actually give a shit. I’m really not that interested in other
people. As others have said before me, ‘I just want to be able to pee in peace’!

💯 All of this.

I couldn’t give a stuff about trans people so long as trans identifying males stay out of womens spaces and sports and the kids are left alone.

Otherwise crack on

This is Mumsnet but that doesn't mean we're everyone's Mum.

It's not our job to sort out where everyone goes for a piss or gets changed for swimming, or to sort out sporting opportunities for everyone.

We are allowed to fight for our own rights without solving everyone else's problems first. We are allowed to simply say that we want our fucking stuff back.

'What should trans people actually do?'

Leave women and girls alone
Leave LGB alone
Leave children alone

I think that covers it.

Im really curious about something.
People say Elliot Page doesnt pass. Fine, whatever.

But what about a transman who DOES pass? (I know one or two).
Surely, by the responses here, they should be using the ladies toilets, since thats what they were born as. However, they look male. How would that sit with you?

I also know a couple of trans women who pass perfectly well. Theyre not all "amazons" like Laverne Cox. Should they then go in the mens toilets?

As an aside, the “women weren’t allowed to compete in the marathon until the 70s” thing is a myth. It’s true that there was no women’s marathon at the Olympics until 84 but women have been officially competing in marathons since the 1920s at least.

Is that true? I'm in Boston and this is a fairly iconic photo here https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/athletics/news/29175/12475824/kathrine-switzer-first-woman-to-officially-run-boston-marathon-on-the-iconic-moment-she-was-attacked-by-the-race-organiser

I thought long distance running for women was only allowed in competition by the IIAF in the 60s/70s. I had never heard of women running marathons in the 1920s. (when I googled it I got dance marathons!)

Sorry - off topic.

If you think you'll upset women because you look like a man, use the men's toilets. If you think you pass as a woman, use the men's toilets.

Simple.

Noone is policing who uses what toilets
I think most women just want to be able to challenge creepy men in their spaces. And we all know its not possible to define creepy men easily.
Men get to use womens toilets with permission, not by default.

Bu thats... a really big double standard.

By that standard, someone like Nicole Maines could easily use the ladies, since you wouldnt look twice at her, and she doesnt look like a creepy man.
But if you look like Laverne Cox, then you cant, because... reasons!

We know that some trans/identifying females ('transmen') can "pass" as men. That's true. I personally might see them as feminine looking men with their small hands and feet. Depends on when they started testosterone injections. But it doesn't take long in their presence to realise they're female as I don't feel threatened by them. It's an innate sense of 'knowing'. For these women, I'll happily campaign for transmen only spaces

Transwomen never pass. The walk, the smell, the entitlement. My neighbour has a rescue dog who was abused by males. She cowers in fright at the (pleasant) trans-identifying male who lives in our area.

Yes, I really can see the feminine side of Brian Michael Smith, with his small hands and feet!
https://pridesource.com/article/ann-arbor-native-brian-michael-smith-incredibly-honored-to-be-first-trans-man-on-peoples-sexiest-men-alive-list/
It is the first thing that strikes me about him when I look at his pictures. Its how feminine he looks.

Well, Laverne Cox is male, so I'd expect them to use the men's toilets.

And if they wanted to run the 100 metres then I'd expect them to be running against men.

Elliott Page, I couldn't really care less. I'm a man and not bothered if they want to use the men's loos, they're not a threat to me. They can run the men's 100m if they want, but they're not likely to get very far, or they can run the women's, as long as they're not taking any banned substances.

Can you really not tell that this person is female by looking at them?

Of course not, nor can you. There is absolutely NOTHING about this person that screams woman, unless you KNOW that he is trans and was born a woman. Then your confirmation bias can take over.

Agreed, and the same the other way, females should not be allowed in male changing rooms, hospital wards etc.

It's not clothing and feelings that make you male or female it's the chromosomes in your body.