Stickering

[washingsomuchwashing]

I sticker regularly to raise awareness and they all get removed. Why is this? Other stickers aren't. Why can't people express their opinion? Took great pleasure in ripping down the Trans rights poster that's just appeared in my neighbourhood. If my stickers are removed, so will their poster.

@Helleofabore Thank you for the additional information.
Clearly it’s troubling that this person was able to access women’s refuges and change their name so easily to avoid ongoing monitoring. It also does not seem right that for them to be put in a woman’s prison which as I said earlier needs proper procedures and risk assessments for the safety of all concerned.

Here is something that I didn't know before. That Dolatowski had tried this before.

Yes, there were two little girls.

"someone who is intent on hurting or abusing people isn’t going to stop because they aren’t allowed in the toilets. If you want to hurt people you’re going to do it irrespective of toilet rules."

Here is the other tropish point. We see it all the time.

Please tell us kit, why you wish that women and children be put into the situation that they cannot either express any concern about a male being in the toilet which is a single sex space NOR can they ask that person to leave or have security to come and ask that person to leave?

Why are you so keen to increase the risk of women and children in this way?

And this is not even discussing women and children's need for privacy and dignity. ... which you have failed to even acknowledge. Because to YOU, all women and girls do in the toilets is pee. Showing YOU really have not got a clue about the reality of women and girl's lives at all.

I’m not sure why you think I said you shouldn’t be able to express concern? I said people shouldn’t put stickers on other people’s property for any reason.

Using your own logic, these males are no risk at all.

Why do you think that they shouldn't be allowed to access female prisons yet able to access any other female single sex space?

Do you now understand that they have fucking fully working dicks? That your attempts here this morning was purely showing that YOU are uninformed yet thought nothing of describing women's concerns as HYSTERICAL and dismissing them using your misinformation?

Your posts on this thread have been entirely about dismissing women's concerns. Shall l recap them for you?

Please can you tell us what your intention with the following approaches were about. Maybe I have misread them but I believe they are tactics that are meant to dismiss women's concerns. Happy to be corrected with your clarifications, readers can then read back through to understand better.

-Telling people they know little about trans people.

-Weaponising female transitioners to shame women from discussing and activating about keeping all female single sex spaces restricted to single sex. (this one is a very well used tropish approach from other areas of the internet)

-Telling women that these male individuals 'just want to pee' peacefully (how is this not telling women that their concerns are based on falsehoods?)

-Telling us that male's magically lose their propensity to commit sex crime (no evidence presented).

-Telling us that testosterone suppression reduces 'sexual urges' so these males are somehow magically safe. (This is clearly false misinformation)

-Misusing hate crime statistics which do not show what you want them to and do not support your claims about male's being 'attacked'? (as you asserted here 'I think given how much hate crime trans people have faced over recent years it’s much more likely a trans woman using them men’s toilets will be physically or sexually assaulted.")

-A plea for women to 'think of these male people' and put them first by letting them use female single sex spaces. (this is so clearly emotionally manipulative it doesn't need to be pointed out)

-A claim that all women do in the toilet is pee and wash their hands while missing the numerous needs that need privacy in a female toilet. (this is also dismissive as you don't seem to understand the numerous other uses of toilets by female people of all ages, and needs of those female people)

-Oh, I forgot that women expressing concerns are "buying into hysterics?"

Each of these approaches has been to dismiss women and their concerns. Through use of misinformation, emotional manipulation and shaming. You may not have ever thought about it, maybe you see this happening else where on the internet and thought it was a really good approach to copy. However, when I look at what you have posted here this morning, it is quite clear that you don't seem to have a good grasp on what women on this board have been discussing and building knowledge on over the past years.

By the way, here is a study discussing the strength disparities between males with reduced testosterone and women. Even with reduced testosterone a male can punch harder than the most powerful woman. And grip strength is a huge differential as well. Testosterone reduction does not mean that any male is weak and defenseless as women and girls are. I mean that is just two physical advantages. Longer arm length, on average greater height, the list goes on.

Again, why do you want to increase the risk to any female person in any female single sex space by allowing any subset of male people into them?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

@Helleofabore I’m really sorry if I’ve somehow offended you that has not been my intention . I came here as I was interested in the issues of this stickering and the rationale for why they do it. I didn’t realise this stickering was even a thing. I’ve seen stickers in general occasionally but didn’t realise it was an active thing people do to campaign for any cause.

I really do think there is a massive fear here of trans people and while the example of the person in Scotland attacking the girls and then being free to go into a women’s hostel is shocking this doesn’t mean all transgender people or all men would do this. It saddens me to find just how afraid some people seem to be on here of men and transgender people the vast majority of whom just want to get on with their lives.

I have done a lot of research about trans issues myself and i standby the view that lowering testosterone reduces sexual interest. This of course isn’t really the actual point and nor is anything I say or anything you say likely to result in a change of opinion and I’m sure you are no more than a medical expert specialising in hormones than I am, therefore it’s not exactly serving any purpose to continue going over a topic that isn’t either of our specialist areas.

I am genuinely interested in others views (hence why I’m here) and in no way want to shut down your views even if I have a very much opposed view to you, so if you got that impression I apologise.

why not just let people go to the toilet in peace.

That is exactly what women want - to go to the toilet in peace in an area that is exclusively for FEMALES, not males whatever said males are wearing, whatever hormones they are or are not taking, whatever cosmetic or surgical alterations they have chosen to make to themselves. Women are entitled to safety, dignity, privacy and comfort in spaces that were designed for their sole use.

What you are advocating for is for males to have the choice of all available facilities and for women to have no choice, particularly those women who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not want to share a space with a male.

I think given how much hate crime trans people have faced over recent years it’s much more likely a trans woman using them men’s toilets will be physically or sexually assaulted.

More risible bollocks, there are NO recorded instances of TW being beaten up of sexually assaulted in the men's toilets and I have scoured the internet looking for case, there isn't one, not one.

Several TW do use the men's toilets and guess what, they report NO incidents at all.

A group of prominent TW trans activists once went into the men's toilets to try and prove how scary it was and how evil the men in there would be to them and it backfired spectacularly, the men barely looked twice at them let alone resort to beating them up.

Does the thought of risk that trans women face because you expect them to use the men’s toilets not concerned you? Do you want them to be exposed to risk?

Answer to first part: No, it doesn't concern me at all my concern is to for the little girls one of whom had a knife held to her throat by Katie Dolatowski.

Answer to the second part: There is no proof of any risk whatsoever.

Your glib comment @Kit7 that if someone wants to attack you in the toilets they will anyway, what you are advocating is to make it even easier - great safeguarding, great comprehension about prevention. Do you take that attitude with anything else?

Finally, women are not on this earth as validation tools for males who think they are women, nor are they on this earth to act as human shields or become collateral damage.

If TW don't like using the male toilets or changing rooms that are there for their use, tough let them advocate for an extra space for their use do not presume to take spaces away from women.

I really do think there is a massive fear here of trans people

No fear. Males should not be in women's spaces, the end.

I have done a lot of research about trans issues myself and i standby the view that lowering testosterone reduces sexual interest.

Well, your 'research' is clearly full of holes as Hellofabore pointed out, you have provided nothing to rebut her findings.

You would be happy to have the duck mask wearing piss protester share facilities with you would you? Google the protest outside the EHRC, especially revealing is when said protester pours urine over themself whilst wearing a long clingy dress their erection is clearly visible.

Or perhaps you'd be comfortable with Sarah Jane Baker out on life licence for torturing their victim, now thankfully recalled to prison after inciting violence against women.

Yeah, of course you would.

That is exactly what women want - to go to the toilet in peace in an area that is exclusively for FEMALES, not males whatever said males are wearing, whatever hormones they are or are not taking, whatever cosmetic or surgical alterations they have chosen to make to themselves. Women are entitled to safety, dignity, privacy and comfort in spaces that were designed for their sole use.

What you are advocating for is for males to have the choice of all available facilities and for women to have no choice, particularly those women who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not want to share a space with a male.

This. As I said to this poster, it is a violation of my privacy and dignity for any males to use women's spaces. They tried to handwave that away. No one can decide for me what my boundaries are.

I guess it makes a change from literally being Hitler!

Your glib dismissal of women in general has been very clear. Whether you intended it or not. Towards the majority of posters on this thread.

Not only that, you have rolled through all the tropish and false logic points, some times multiple in one post. And as gail points out and I missed in my list, you even have tried to tell women that males are going to do it anyway, so what is the point of putting back the social mores and/or creating laws to protect women and children.

And you have doubled down on your absolutely dangerous claim that males on testosterone have lower propensity to commit sex crime! How may studies would you like me to show you that lowering testosterone is inconsistent and doesn’t lower the risk these males have of committing sexual crime? Another 10? 20? Whereas you have produced nothing. Nothing to back up your continued assertions, which have come with (unintentional as it may have been) a dose of shaming tactics.

You claim to have done research about trans people, your first post on this thread was to tell a poster that they obviously knew nothing. Yet that poster has linked you up with information you claim you have never seen. And now you turn around and say ‘it is only one’!

Would you like more then? We have them. Here is a fucking hint: it is never just fucking one!

And many of us have done the fucking research because we have loved ones who are vulnerable and who may be trans.

And yet strangely testosterone levels historical and current are EXACTLY the reason that safeguarding is needed for women and children! Because it is now widely understood that testosterone gives all males physical advantages that blocking testosterone can never remove. That is why males should be excluded from all female single sex spaces.

You are trying to dismiss testosterone for some reason, it underlies the entire discussion!

And if you have done so much research you hand wave away everything women have raised, so show us. Give us the links to back your research.

Let’s actively discuss it.

Back to the subject of the thread - stickering, there is a long history of stickers, posters and even graffiti being used to highlight causes, to protest, to raise awareness, it maybe a blunt tool but it is a tool that has been deployed widely for centuries.

this doesn’t mean all transgender people or all men would do this. It saddens me to find just how afraid some people seem to be on here of men and transgender people the vast majority of whom just want to get on with their lives.

Ah the famous NAMALT coupled with NATWALT has made an appearance. We know, but here's the kicker - how do you tell the difference between those who would and those who wouldn't? Do you not understand the very basics of safeguarding? Why do we screen everyone who wants to work with children or vulnerable people? Think really, really hard why.

Women just want to get on with their lives too not having to second guess whether there are males in their spaces. On the subject of concern do you @Kit7 have no concern for the women who are now excluded or are excluding themselves because they cannot share spaces with males? Do you have any concern for how much their lives are being diminished, how they who are already on the edges of society are being pushed out totally?

I bet you don't.

yes. Love it or hate it, it is a valid tool for communications.

Even those with female anatomy on them. I truly cannot believe that trope was rolled out. Ovaries and shadow images of clitorises in front of children.... THE SHAME WOMEN AND GIRLS, THE SHAME!!!!

Sure, but OP started the thread ostensibly surprised that her stickers were being removed. If OP can sticker politically, then I can desticker politically too and I don't see why that would surprise her.

You absolutely can remove them. And if you feel so strongly about it, you should. Go for it!

I post in the loos. Often on the sanitary bin as they aren't the property of the venue and only get changed every so often by the company that drives round to do it. Figure it will last longer. Also in loos because not on cctv!

The back of the loo roll holder is the best place, can only be seen when on the loo so they often stay for ages.

I feel like there has to be limits to stickering, I remember mid-covid I was in an ASDA, picked up some cereal, and the one behind it had a MASSIVE sticker on it almost covering half the box saying something like "If the mask works why the distancing, if the distancing works, why the lockdowns" or something like that.

Regardless of how anyone feels about whatever topic it is, on a lamp post or a wall or whatever, sure go for it, but on cereal?
Seems a bit 'V for Vendetta-esque' to me lol

Sure, but OP started the thread ostensibly surprised that her stickers were being removed. If OP can sticker politically, then I can desticker politically too and I don't see why that would surprise her.

Yes, of course you can, plenty of women do the same to pro TRA stickers, after all.

I don't think anyone's advocating interfering with the actual products that a business sells, like on cereal boxes. I think most people are thinking of street furniture, public spaces and in toilets.

Oh no, Gail. We were accused of that earlier today. The words 'pervert' was used, as if any regular poster on this thread would use that word on a thread...

I really cannot help feeling that there is some deep prejudice about the opinions of women who disagree with some posters coming through today. The lack of understanding about how women and girl's use toilet spaces leads me to think that some posters really have little understanding about the reality of women and girl's lives.

I wonder what some posters think I should have done when I had flooding periods that come with diarrhoea while my child was strapped into a fully laden pram (because I wasn't able to drive) that meant there was no fucking way that door could close and there was no alternative available to me. Except to have the door jammed open so everyone could see past the pram. I wonder... what the fuck should I have done? Oh.... I know... stay home and get someone else to deliver the items from the pharmacy and the nappies and the groceries. Because, sure, a person with no family in a strange country can easily do this!

The fact it happened regularly over a full year meant it was NOT just once this happened. But hey.... I don't seem to deserve any dignity or lessening of the deep abiding humiliation of these events at all. Because... what about the male people....???

Then I have had to toilet a disabled elderly women in a normal toilet when there is no available options. The only way is to have the wheelchair jammed in the door. I am sure that some posters would think that she deserved no privacy or at least the understanding of only female people either.

Or they believe that it doesn't happen because they have never had to do it or seen anyone else do it.

And we have had posters who have fucking delivered babies in toilets come and tell us on this board.

And I know of friends who have miscarried in public toilets and needed to have privacy and understanding of having only female people while they wash and dry their clothes.

The number of women, and I have done it myself, who need to dry clothes that are stained for a huge slew of reasons under the hand drier in a state of undress is a regular occurrence. I came across a women the other day in the pub just in her bra drying her shirt.

The list is endless. I can easily go further. There is so many instances where female people of any age simply do not want to have males in their spaces.

Even 'why don't you just want to wash your hands with male's around' lacks the knowledge and understanding of the bloody mess that often cannot be removed with toilet paper. Either people repeating that are male or have been blessed with light periods their entire life.

I suspect though that those who continue with the 'women just pee' or 'why are you so embarrassed to just wash your hands in a mixed sex toilets' simply have no knowledge outside their own limited usage. And there are some obvious reasons for that.

No no!!! toilets are fucking just for peeing in!