Stickering

[washingsomuchwashing]

I sticker regularly to raise awareness and they all get removed. Why is this? Other stickers aren't. Why can't people express their opinion? Took great pleasure in ripping down the Trans rights poster that's just appeared in my neighbourhood. If my stickers are removed, so will their poster.

I shared some of my photos of my stickering on a FB group recently and 'met', someone who'll be at WWW in Falkirk soon so that's great, always up for meeting new GC women.

No, that was @JenniferBarkley .

’just want to use the bathroom in peace’ ( though personally I don’t want to share a 🛁 with anyone, not even my family).

@PorcelinaV
I didn’t want to get drawn in on the prison issue since I’d been accused of derailing this thread and didn’t think it was relevant since it was clear this was about toilets and other generally public places. Prisons are a complex issue and I’d agree it needs careful thought for the safety of the regular women prisoners AND trans women so guidelines and risk assessments probably need to be considered carefully by those responsible here and as you say they probably should be housed somewhere completely different.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs thank you I’ll read up on this case when I have some free time later.

Well. I googled.

Regarding testosterone suppression. It has been widely known just how unreliable suppression actually is. This has been commented on by those who have been vocal about how testosterone suppression is absolutely fucking useless for women’s sports fairness and should never have been proposed.

It is also highly harmful to males to do this. And taking estrogen doesn’t protect against the harm from the loss of testosterone. Something that some people who are self-appointed spokespeople for trans people don’t seem to understand. It is wrong to demand that any male suppresses their testosterone as it can shorten lives.

Anyway, here is a small study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1530891X20353969

Endocrine Practice
Volume 24, Issue 2, February 2018, Pages 135-142

Jennifer J. Liang MS, Divya Jolly BS, Kelly J. Chan BA, Joshua D. Safer MD

ABSTRACT

Objective: Most transgender women depend on medical treatment alone to lower testosterone levels in order to align physical appearance with gender identity. The medical regimen in the United States typically includes spironolactone and estrogens. The purpose of this cross-sectional study was to assess the testosterone suppression achieved among transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogens.

Methods: Testosterone and estradiol levels were extracted from the electri electronic medical records of 98 anonymized transgender women treated with oral spironolactone and oral estrogen therapy at the Endocrinology Clinic at Boston Medical Center.

Results: Patients starting therapy required about 9 months to reach a steady-state testosterone, with significant heterogeneity of levels achieved among patients. Patients with normal body mass index (BMI) had higher testosterone levels, whereas patients with obese BMI had lower testosterone levels throughout treatment. Stratification of patients by age or spironolactone dosage revealed no significant difference in testosterone levels achieved. At steady state, patients in the highest suppressing quartile were able to achieve testosterone levels of 27 ng/dL, with a standard deviation of 21 ng/dL. Measured serum estradiol levels did not change over time and did not correlate with dosage of estradiol administered.

Conclusion: Among a cohort of transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogen, the highest suppressing quartile could reliably achieve testosterone levels in the female range at virtually all times. The second highest suppressing quartile could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time. One quartile was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

I cannot access this study. I will look for others. However this came out around the same time as the article below. Here is the article that relates to this study.

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/camed/2018/02/20/medicine-alone-does-not-completely-suppress-testosterone-levels-among-transgender-women/

“Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.”

“This study allowed us to identify patients who achieved differing levels of testosterone suppression, including a group of patients unable to achieve any significant testosterone suppression. These patients may have had difficulty adhering to their treatment or may have had a different physiologic response to treatment than other patients. On the other hand, patients who were able to achieve high levels of suppression may have adhered stringently to their treatment or had robust response based on physiology,” explained corresponding author Joshua D. Safer, MD, FACP, associate professor of medicine at Boston University School of Medicine.”

With this in mind, would you like to tell us all on this thread at what n/mols do male people on testosterone suppression lose their sexual urges.

And can you point to where that relates to female testosterone levels to support your claim:

“Testosterone is the reason men can get an erection and the reason men generally have a higher sex drive then woman !”

TL/DR

“Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.”

Please stop spreading misinformation on threads.

I'm not a fan of stickering really like any graffiti. I'm Scotland during the run up to the indy referendum, (and even since then) there have been Yes stickers put up all over the place including on reflective road signs which can be unsafe and expensive to sort out.

Knowing how I felt as a no voter seeing those yes stickers, I don't think I could support it even if it was for a cause I care about like this.

It felt like folk marking their territory and imposing their political opinions over folk who wouldn't stick stickers everywhere but still had the right to their own opinions.

I appreciate that I get that same sort of feeling when I see the trans-pride flags everywhere on businesses etc it feels like being told to shut up and get with the programme.

I thought the comments up thread about stickering being a legitimate form of protest when silenced elsewhere were thought provoking though. I understand that seeing that others share your view could be reassuring when everywhere else appears captured.

In* Scotland 🙄

Sorry, I forgot to add, I added the handy chart on the bottom of my post as a visual cue to understand just what the differences are between male and female testosterone levels.

I mentioned that as I have removed the stickers in the loos at work.

Seems to be causing some confusion - it is common to refer to any room with a toilet, particularly public conveniences, as the bathroom in many parts of the English-speaking world. I guess you haven't come across that before, so I'm happy to be able to provide that clarification.

You promised thoughts

I’m looking forward to them

don’t disappoint me now

I thought the comments up thread about stickering being a legitimate form of protest when silenced elsewhere were thought provoking though. I understand that seeing that others share your view could be reassuring when everywhere else appears captured.

I don't like stickers either and this is what I also think.

Regarding toilets.

What makes a male who comes out as trans in his 40s suddenly more vulnerable in single sex mens toilets?

He's not suddenly smaller, lighter, less strong or more vulnerable to sexual assault than he was the day before he came out. If he is wearing feminine make up and clothing then he is signalling that he is self assured enough to break the stereotypes of society's man box. Occasionally men will take offence at that and react aggressively the same way they might if a camp gay man were there instead.

But he's not suddenly as vulnerable as a female in the same situation. Pretending he is is part of wanting to be the idea in his head of what a woman is. But it isn't true his body is as male as it was the day before. However he's dressed it.

Aggressive men, homophobic men, may be violent towards men that they perceive are weaker than them. They may attack effeminate men or gay men, or boys or old men or disabled men or gender non conforming men or trans identifying men.

But that doesn't mean any of those vulnerable men belong in female single sex spaces. Absolutely find ways of making male toilets/prisons/etc safer and more pleasant spaces. That's important, but don't make female spaces less safe by putting men in them.

Most of the people I see cleaning public toilets local to here are men.

Anyhoo stickering to some may be anti feminist.

The damage being done to women in the name of trans rights is far, far more anti feminist.

Woman who stickers = literally Genghis Khan

I’ve just seen a brand new row of ‘no pride without trans pride’ posters near my work. They weren’t there yesterday. All very professionally produced and printed. Who is paying for this?

Here is a study about relationship between libido and testosterone for any one who is interested. There is a pdf version available.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16670164/

The relationship between libido and testosterone levels in aging men.

May 2006. Travison et al.

What this shows is actually while there is a ‘correlation’ it is certainly NOT ‘all’ males with ‘low testosterone’ that have low libidos. And the difference between ‘low’ and ‘normal’ is about 0.12 mol/L.

Which as the chart I posted shows, means there is nothing really in it.

Any person relying on false information that any reduction in testosterone levels leads to ‘lower risk of sex crime’ is acting on misleading information considering how few males remove their testes AND how unreliable testosterone suppression is.

I’ve read the article now thank you. As you’ve requested here are my thoughts on no particular order -

1. it should go without saying but clearly, what happened to this girl is awful and clearly upsetting for her and those around her.
2. I may have missed it because the article jumps around as it loads it’s many adverts but it doesn’t say whether or not this happened in the women’s toilets, mens or disabled
3. I’m not sure how stickering will have helped prevent this.
4. someone who is intent on hurting or abusing people isn’t going to stop because they aren’t allowed in the toilets. If you want to hurt people you’re going to do it irrespective of toilet rules.
5. The offender from the photo ( and it may have filters) on looks passably female so how would you police the toilet rules to stop her going into the women’s toilets in future.
6. The offender clearly has MH issues and I hope measures are put in place and lessons learned on how to avoid this incident better in the future. I hope they also get help they need in prison.
7. It concerns me that also the offender is clearly a bad person I’d be concerned about their safeguarding in prison. I did note that they also physically assaulted someone else while there. Would this have happened if they were in some sort of better holding facility?
8. Clearly it’s good that they weren’t put in a women’s prison
9. Other trans people or men can’t be held accountable for this person’s actions.
10. the sentence seems quite lenient.

Now…. About those startling sex crime statistics of the current male transitioned UK prison population. Maybe this will also add to just how false the claim is that :

“Testosterone is the reason men can get an erection and the reason men generally have a higher sex drive then woman !”

And that "Most trans people take hormones to which reduce their sexual urges." I suggest that 'most' trans people (male) don't have fully reduced sexual urges at all.

It is dangerous and absurd to tell women and children that they are hysterical to be concerned.

academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239

‘She Was Just Like A Lassie’: Analysing The Views of Cis-Women In Custody About Their Experiences of Living With Transgender Women In The Scottish Prison Estate

Matthew Maycock, 14 September 2021

The latest official figures indicate a fall in the average number of women in custody between 2011–12 and 2016–17, followed by a relatively static female average prison population of under 400 women since 2016–17 (Scottish Government 2020). At the time of ethical approval for the study (May 2019), there were 379 women in custody in Scotland, equating to 4.6% of the prison population, located in five prisons2 across Scotland. In May 2019 there were 17 transgender people in custody.

A very biased report. But some comments such as:

She’s been caught having sex and stuff in here, and I think that’s wrong. Well, supposedly, she had stopped taking her medication for a bit and, supposedly, something had happened.

There’s a transgender [wo]man (Susan). He worked in the...my work party. His views were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.

And it’s been like...aye. And it’s been like, well, wait a minute, you’ve still got that strength and whatever. You’re still acting like a man here. Like trying to get like authority over you.

She was never female before until she hit [name of prison] and then decided that she wanted to be a woman because she couldn’t handle it. I think she puts a lot of it on.

Several participants discussed transgender people who had transitioned in custody, but who had reverted to their birth gender following release. For example, Isla below outlines her acceptance of a transgender woman (Ruth) in her hall, reflecting on the hurt that this caused given the efforts she and other prisoners made to accept and welcome this person:

We treated that lassie (Ruth) as female. I treated that lassie with the greatest respect. And I always said that, what do you need? And then when Janice came back and told us that, after she got lib, it really kind of…it hurt. It hurt us, because we tried to help her, we tried to make her feel welcome. I felt personally she was a man wanting an easy escape from the male estate.

Ella shared similar experiences about different transgender people she had got to know while in custody. This for Ella resulted in a wider scepticism about the transitions of transgender people in custody:

The last one to get out, back living as a man. The one before that got out, back living as a man, while he was in the hall, was telling people, I’m stopping taking my medication because I can’t get a hard on. I’ve not a problem living with trans people, it’s living with people who are manipulating the system and pretending to be trans.

Notice how many of the female prisoners point out how many of those males were still very sexually active. Some were effected by the hormone suppressants, but they simply stopped taking them.

Misinformation can be very harmful when it comes to women and children’s safety. Anyone who is still keen to spread misinformation, please stop.

"I’m not sure how stickering will have helped prevent this."

Stickering is way to raise awareness. It is just one way and if it is a sticker in the toilet, it can provoke thoughts about the situation that the person seeing the sticker has not thought about before.

It is a very simple marketing tool.

• The offender from the photo ( and it may have filters) on looks passably female so how would you police the toilet rules to stop her going into the women’s toilets in future.

"It may have filters" that's a good one, I'll give you that. If anyone else wants a laugh, click on Bernard's link.

Busy now, but enjoying the observation that a man with beaver ears ‘may be using filters’

I suggest you go and google that person's name to get more information.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11995845/Trans-female-sex-offender-backed-Sturgeons-gender-reform-laws-held-male-jail-78-days.html

I mean here is another. It confirms it was a female toilet.

It is also known that this person was in a female prison at one stage. AND on release changed their name and accessed a female shelter without disclosing their name or their crime.

No, they're really not militant at all. A minor act of rebellion maybe but not confrontational or violent in any way.

You know.... google is your friend.... as you were so keen on telling us this morning.

And yes, anyone reading who wants to see Dolatowski without a filter, there is an image of this individual running in the link I posted.

Here is something that I didn't know before. That Dolatowski had tried this before.

"That attack came just weeks after she targeted another girl at an Asda store in Dunfermline."

https://news.stv.tv/north/trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-jailed-in-mens-prison-low-moss-after-breaking-court-order

https://news.stv.tv/north/trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-jailed-in-mens-prison-low-moss-after-breaking-court-order

And at first Dolatowski was put in a women's prison.

https://www.clacks.gov.uk/social/corntonvale/

this one.

Yes.... women and children's concerns are hysterical!