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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

302 replies

QuimReaper · 11/07/2023 11:14

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Semenya wins court appeal over testosterone limits

The European Court of Human Rights rules in favour of double Olympic 800m champion Caster Semenya in a case involving testosterone levels in female athletes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

OP posts:
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18
aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 20:44

HootyMcBooby76 · 12/07/2023 18:35

Question then....

What IS the third gamete?

What IS the spectrum?

What IS the sex that is neither male nor female?

That was a true statement, it does not "need corrected".

I agree there is no third gamete, but there are individuals born with XY chromosomes who have gonadal tissue which does not take the form of either ovaries or testes - so they cannot create either type of gametes. Would you say such a person is male or female?

It has been suggested that they are clearly female, because they don’t have a functioning SRY gene on their Y chromosome and apparently in some cases can carry a pregnancy using donor eggs. However, it seems to me this is far from clear cut.

nothingcomestonothing · 12/07/2023 20:58

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 20:44

I agree there is no third gamete, but there are individuals born with XY chromosomes who have gonadal tissue which does not take the form of either ovaries or testes - so they cannot create either type of gametes. Would you say such a person is male or female?

It has been suggested that they are clearly female, because they don’t have a functioning SRY gene on their Y chromosome and apparently in some cases can carry a pregnancy using donor eggs. However, it seems to me this is far from clear cut.

For the subject of this thread, does it matter? CS doesn't have such a condition. CS has one which causes ambiguous genitals, which is not relevant to sport, and normal male puberty and male testosterone levels, which is.

CS is male. CS has XY chromosomes, and went through male puberty, and has testes which produce male levels of testosterone.

CS knows this, and has known this for many years.CS knows he is a cheat, and CS has stolen opportunities from women with that cheating.

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 21:01

nothingcomestonothing · 12/07/2023 20:58

For the subject of this thread, does it matter? CS doesn't have such a condition. CS has one which causes ambiguous genitals, which is not relevant to sport, and normal male puberty and male testosterone levels, which is.

CS is male. CS has XY chromosomes, and went through male puberty, and has testes which produce male levels of testosterone.

CS knows this, and has known this for many years.CS knows he is a cheat, and CS has stolen opportunities from women with that cheating.

I was answering the specific question from @HootyMcBooby76

Imnobody4 · 12/07/2023 21:10

Excellent explanation of this DSD by Carole Hooven

twitter.com/hoovlet/status/1678772398617956355?t=VpfAruoGgdwj1qDo83LJdQ&s=19

Caster Semenya has won a recent ruling. Caster has a Difference (or Disorder) of Sex Development (DSD), and the press has been misleading the public for a long time about about athletes with DSDs. People with DSDs deserve compassion and to live their lives free of harassment, with access to appropriate healthcare, etc. But cases such as this force the issue of their specific, sex-based biology.
reuters.com/sports/athleti…
Caster and others with her DSD are not females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They are males with testosterone-producing testes and XY sex chromosomes, and normal levels of testosterone for their sex. They experience the physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the relevant condition, 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female and even be legally female.

5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance.
Here's relevant bit on DSDs from the most recent Eligibility Regulations for the Female Classification for Athletes with Differences of Sex Development, linked to below (pg 2):

"Some individuals have congenital conditions that cause atypical sex development (known as “Differences of Sex Development”, or “DSDs”). In certain cases, this may lead to an individual being assigned at birth a legal sex of female and/or having a female gender identity, notwithstanding that the individual has fully functioning (internal) testes rather than ovaries."
worldathletics.org/download/downl…

So the “decision makers” are aware that athletes affected 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce T to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

It’s too bad that almost no mainstream media outlets will tell the whole truth. We need to rely on journalism report facts, so we can arrive at informed views about relevant policies. And the truth about sex is important when it comes to protected female spaces, like women’s sports. #sexmatters

NotBadConsidering · 12/07/2023 21:14

nothingcomestonothing · 12/07/2023 20:58

For the subject of this thread, does it matter? CS doesn't have such a condition. CS has one which causes ambiguous genitals, which is not relevant to sport, and normal male puberty and male testosterone levels, which is.

CS is male. CS has XY chromosomes, and went through male puberty, and has testes which produce male levels of testosterone.

CS knows this, and has known this for many years.CS knows he is a cheat, and CS has stolen opportunities from women with that cheating.

Rare variations like Swyer Syndrome don’t prove that there is a 3rd gamete does it? It also doesn’t prove that sex is a spectrum or people aren't male or female, because the discussion regarding Swyer Syndrome is to decide in which of the two categories of sex the person placed. You could ask how do we decide that, and that’s fine, but it would still be which of the two. The answer is never “neither” or a different category of sex called “inbetweeny”.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 12/07/2023 22:47

Rare variations like Swyer Syndrome don’t prove that there is a 3rd gamete does it?

Exactly. All this whatabouttery is 10% naivety and 90% deliberate misdirection. None of it makes the slightest difference to the fact that small gamete producers have an advantage over large gamete producers, and that this includes the small gamete producers who have DSDs.

Let's take a step back and ask ourselves why we are wasting a huge amount of time and energy, as a society, trying to find ways to accommodate a small group of males, at the expense of females. This applies to both males with DSDs and TWs.* *

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 23:01

NotBadConsidering · 12/07/2023 21:14

Rare variations like Swyer Syndrome don’t prove that there is a 3rd gamete does it? It also doesn’t prove that sex is a spectrum or people aren't male or female, because the discussion regarding Swyer Syndrome is to decide in which of the two categories of sex the person placed. You could ask how do we decide that, and that’s fine, but it would still be which of the two. The answer is never “neither” or a different category of sex called “inbetweeny”.

As I said, there are only two types of gametes.

But you seem to be presupposing the answer you believe to be true (that everyone must be definitively either male or female - and I’m assuming we’re talking biologically here, not legally) and trying to make the facts fit, rather than looking at the facts and basing your view on them.

when you consider a person with a mixture of male and female sex characteristics, why do you assume there must be a way to decide whether they are ‘really’ a male or female person, rather than concluding that some people (a very tiny proportion) cannot be categorised as either male or female?

Clymene · 12/07/2023 23:07

This thread is about Semenya who has a very specific kind of rare DSD where a male's genitals don't develop normally.

If you want to have a debate about other kinds of DSD @aseriesofstillimages, could I ask you to start a new thread please? I don't bringing other abnormalities into the discussion is very helpful or relevant.

Clymene · 12/07/2023 23:09

I don't think that should have said.

As to semenya's dsd, it has been confirmed (after many years of shilly-shallying) that he has 5-ARD

ILikeDungs · 12/07/2023 23:38

when you consider a person with a mixture of male and female sex characteristics, why do you assume there must be a way to decide whether they are ‘really’ a male or female person, rather than concluding that some people (a very tiny proportion) cannot be categorised as either male or female?

There is no mixture of male and female characteristics in CS's case, he has internal testes and under developed genitals resulting from 5-ard and he is male. You are the one desperately trying to make "facts" fit, @aseriesofstillimages

Rainbowshit · 13/07/2023 07:30

Exactly. Caster's DSD occurs only in males.

@aseriesofstillimages does it not trouble you that 3 people with such an incredibly rare DSD took podium positions in female sports? What are the odds on that? Does that not indicate something to you?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2023 09:13

I know you don't care because it suits your belief that males can be women to use this sophistry, @aseriesofstillimages but it's quite upsetting to some people with disorders of sex development when people claim they don't have a sex at all as a gotcha argument. These are medical conditions within the sex binary, not imagined "gender". There are two sexes, not three.

Helleofabore · 13/07/2023 09:25

The sex characteristics that no one has both of (unless they have a condition such as mosiacism or one of the about 500 people recorded with ovotestes) is the primary differentiators between who is male and who is female. Ovaries or testes.

A male with testes, even streak testes, is male. And this does include those with CAIS. Now those with CAIS are unique and accommodations are made for their needs. Doesn’t mean they are not male people with a body that doesn’t process testosterone though.

Trying to use the ‘what proportion’ of primary and secondary sex characteristics becomes meaningless when you define female as having a body formed around the production of large gametes, even when the ovaries are missing or not working for whatever reason.

And yet, posters still try this very offensive tactic to state that sex is some kind of spectrum. And a person with a difference of sex development is somewhere in the middle of male or female.

aseriesofstillimages · 13/07/2023 10:13

Can you all decide whether or not you want to talk on this thread about whether sex is binary and the nature of various different DSDs, please? Because whenever I respond to people’s comments on those wider topics I get accused of de-railing the thread.

aseriesofstillimages · 13/07/2023 10:16

Rainbowshit · 13/07/2023 07:30

Exactly. Caster's DSD occurs only in males.

@aseriesofstillimages does it not trouble you that 3 people with such an incredibly rare DSD took podium positions in female sports? What are the odds on that? Does that not indicate something to you?

For what it’s worth, though I wouldn’t say I’m particularly qualified to judge, I don’t think people with CS’s DSD probably should be allowed to compete in the female categories where they have a clear advantage. It’s not even about what their sex is, it’s just that they have a condition which clearly gives them a very significant advantage.

HootyMcBooby76 · 13/07/2023 10:31

I don't think people are having a go at you @aseriesofstill images, I think people are rightly trying to clarify that some of what you posted sounds as if you believe that there are some humans on earth who are neither male nor female, but are hovering somewhere in the middle (ie not 100% male or female).
There are a lot of people on here who do know about specific DSDs and when people post, essentially, that sex is some kind of spectrum, they attempt to clarify the science.
It is important to do so because any suggestion that sex is not fixed and immutable and firmly in one camp or the other, plays directly into the ideology that a man can be a woman if he just says he is, or vice versa, or that Caster is "just" a woman with high testosterone, or that sex can be chosen on any given day and that women's spaces cannot be protected because, well, who the hell KNOWS what a woman is?
I realise YOU have not said any of those things BTW (directly) but it is important when talking about DSDs that we realise that those people have followed a reproductive pathway starting at either male OR female, and even if something has gone wrong along that pathway, they are still, and remain, either male or female. DSDs are sex specific disorders, meaning that there are male ones, and female ones.
The DSD "debate" has been captured and twisted by the TRA to their own advantage at the expense of people with a genuine medical condition in an attempt to muddy the waters and confuse people about the fixed nature of sex.
And so when people make statement like "not 100%" this or that, even if you don't intend it to, these statements do a disservice to both people with DSDs and women trying to protect their rights and freedoms.

Helleofabore · 13/07/2023 10:39

aseriesofstillimages · 13/07/2023 10:16

For what it’s worth, though I wouldn’t say I’m particularly qualified to judge, I don’t think people with CS’s DSD probably should be allowed to compete in the female categories where they have a clear advantage. It’s not even about what their sex is, it’s just that they have a condition which clearly gives them a very significant advantage.

They are MALE and have had a full male puberty.

What part of that is hard to acknowledge and to understand?

The 'condition' that 'gives them a very significant advantage' is a normal male puberty!

It is YOU and your need to believe that sex is some kind of spectrum and that people can be 'a little' bit male that seems to limit you from having a clear understanding of this issue.

Helleofabore · 13/07/2023 10:41

HootyMcBooby76 · 13/07/2023 10:31

I don't think people are having a go at you @aseriesofstill images, I think people are rightly trying to clarify that some of what you posted sounds as if you believe that there are some humans on earth who are neither male nor female, but are hovering somewhere in the middle (ie not 100% male or female).
There are a lot of people on here who do know about specific DSDs and when people post, essentially, that sex is some kind of spectrum, they attempt to clarify the science.
It is important to do so because any suggestion that sex is not fixed and immutable and firmly in one camp or the other, plays directly into the ideology that a man can be a woman if he just says he is, or vice versa, or that Caster is "just" a woman with high testosterone, or that sex can be chosen on any given day and that women's spaces cannot be protected because, well, who the hell KNOWS what a woman is?
I realise YOU have not said any of those things BTW (directly) but it is important when talking about DSDs that we realise that those people have followed a reproductive pathway starting at either male OR female, and even if something has gone wrong along that pathway, they are still, and remain, either male or female. DSDs are sex specific disorders, meaning that there are male ones, and female ones.
The DSD "debate" has been captured and twisted by the TRA to their own advantage at the expense of people with a genuine medical condition in an attempt to muddy the waters and confuse people about the fixed nature of sex.
And so when people make statement like "not 100%" this or that, even if you don't intend it to, these statements do a disservice to both people with DSDs and women trying to protect their rights and freedoms.

Hooty, series has always held the belief that sex is a spectrum. They have had this discussion many times with us and it feels like deja vu.

BellaAmorosa · 13/07/2023 10:43

aseriesofstillimages · 13/07/2023 10:16

For what it’s worth, though I wouldn’t say I’m particularly qualified to judge, I don’t think people with CS’s DSD probably should be allowed to compete in the female categories where they have a clear advantage. It’s not even about what their sex is, it’s just that they have a condition which clearly gives them a very significant advantage.

It's not CS's condition which gives him an advantage. It's being male which does that. His condition gives him a ticket into women's events under current regulations provided he complies with the (totally irrelevant) blood testosterone limit.

PriOn1 · 13/07/2023 10:58

NecessaryScene · 12/07/2023 06:46

Back when I was very active on Twitter, I spent a lot of time talking to some people with DSDs like 5ARD and PAIS and some of them are very distressed to be told they are simply “male and no argument”.

It’s my understanding that, in some places, people with DSDs are allowed legally to choose which sex they identify with, which has made life much easier for them.

DSDs vary a lot - it's a broad classification. I do recall Exulansic going off on one insisting that CAIS XY individuals are men, when that really doesn't make a lot of sense for almost any purpose, except maybe some gene-based therapy or reproductive assistance. There's definitely an argument there, and I'd say "it depends why you're asking about their sex". They're not phenotypically male, and would not be read as such by anyone. It makes more sense socially to classify them as female and women, due to the end result of their development. Their body on the whole develops much closer to the female form, despite no chance of actual female reproduction. (And I've not seen any evidence of male behaviour patterns, or sexuality. Anyone got any evidence either way?)

There is some scope for leeway in treatment in CAIS, and maybe PAIS in social circumstances. Those conditions are so rare, I think "let them choose" is not unreasonable. Society can't tolerate self-ID, and it's increasingly clear we shouldn't have tolerated "gender dysphoria" ID. But maybe it could tolerate "self-ID" for a subset of DSDs.

World Athletics has drawn the line saying CAIS is permitted into female sports, but not PAIS. CAIS does have a sporting advantage over XX females, enough to show up as clear overrepresentation in the field, but apparently not enough to be anything like the unbeatable male advantage, and they definitely would have no more hope in a male field than any woman.

But 5-ARD is really not like those at all. It's a far milder condition, where the developmental differences are far more localised. It is more a disorder of genital development specifically, than affecting the overall sexual phenotype of the body. There's really no ambiguity once you get past a cursory genital check at birth - as is clear when you see Semenya.

There would not be any reason for anyone third-party to suppose Semenya as an adult is female, apart from the presence in female sport and the continued lies from the press. Without the context, you'd assume "zero-effort transwoman" - male claiming to be female with no attempt to pass by any mannerisms or presentation, Alex Drummond or Danielle Muscato style. (Although actually that is the other place 5-ARD has an effect - reduced body hair and no baldness, so Semenya avoids two of the male secondary markers they have. But not being bald and not having a bushy beard is not sufficient to be female!)

And there's no sports disadvantage compared to other men, as far as I know. That's why the scouts were scouting for 5-ARD, not CAIS/PAIS! They were looking for men who had a strong chance to beat elite women. They knew all they needed to do is find someone with 5-ARD at "club runner" level, and they had a shot at the women's Olympics.

Now, it seems historically 5-ARD individuals have been some of those most mistreated in handlings of DSDs. It appears lack of properly developed male genitalia was sufficient to push them into a "not man" category and thus attempt to treat them as female. Which in turn would then require fighting nature - from Wikipedia:

"Female sex of rearing in 5αR2D individuals involves surgical procedures such as childhood gonadectomy (to prevent virilization at puberty) and vaginoplasty. Life-long hormonal treatments as also required for the development and maintenance of female secondary sex characteristics."

In other words - exactly the same as transing any male child, and without consent. And:

"later reports show that over half of patients who underwent virilizing puberty adopted a male gender identity thus challenging historical practices".

Yes, like other "trans children", if you leave them alone, they'll likely become accustomed to their actual sex.

"Male sex of rearing avoids lifelong hormonal treatments and allow for the potential of fertility."

Yes! As for any males! The assignment of female to a 5-ARD male is one of the most clearly wrong that could occur. It's purely on the basis of superficial initial genital appearance, and everything else in the body is going to be pushing the other way.

There are 4 very different cases:

  1. The mistreated 5-ARD individual who was actually "assigned female at birth". Effectively Jazz Jennings, but with even less consent. Infertile due to mistreatment.
  2. A 5-ARD individual who was told they were female as a child, but now looks in the mirror and sees a man, and will have had to come to terms with that. They would have figured it out by puberty. Underdeveloped genitals, but probably fertile with assistance.
  3. A 5-ARD individual who was correctly identified as male as a child, so has always known they were male, and has only to come to terms with their underdeveloped genitalia.
  4. A CAIS individual who has always believed they were female, and looks in the mirror and sees a woman, with no clear outward signs of anything unusual, but knows they're infertile due to their genetics, and has to put up with some people insisting they're a man.

Semenya is either 2 or 3, but it doesn't matter which, because they knew exactly what they were doing by the time they were entering women's sport. The exact nature of their back story is irrelevant. 2 gives them more "sympathy points" but you don't get to spend sympathy points on unfairness to women.

To clarify, I wasn’t in any way referring to Semenya when I was advocating for a little more sympathy. The only time I have seen a loss of control to the point of incoherency, such as that which occurred earlier in this thread, was in a Twitter discussion on the same topic where someone with a DSD got similarly angry (presumably due to personal distress) that people with DSDs were being forced into categories where they didn’t feel comfortable. I am aware some people with DSDs are angry when told they are intersex or not one specific sex, but people with DSDs are not a monolith and some very much advocate for all those with DSDs to be allowed to choose.

aseriesofstillimages · 13/07/2023 11:05

HootyMcBooby76 · 13/07/2023 10:31

I don't think people are having a go at you @aseriesofstill images, I think people are rightly trying to clarify that some of what you posted sounds as if you believe that there are some humans on earth who are neither male nor female, but are hovering somewhere in the middle (ie not 100% male or female).
There are a lot of people on here who do know about specific DSDs and when people post, essentially, that sex is some kind of spectrum, they attempt to clarify the science.
It is important to do so because any suggestion that sex is not fixed and immutable and firmly in one camp or the other, plays directly into the ideology that a man can be a woman if he just says he is, or vice versa, or that Caster is "just" a woman with high testosterone, or that sex can be chosen on any given day and that women's spaces cannot be protected because, well, who the hell KNOWS what a woman is?
I realise YOU have not said any of those things BTW (directly) but it is important when talking about DSDs that we realise that those people have followed a reproductive pathway starting at either male OR female, and even if something has gone wrong along that pathway, they are still, and remain, either male or female. DSDs are sex specific disorders, meaning that there are male ones, and female ones.
The DSD "debate" has been captured and twisted by the TRA to their own advantage at the expense of people with a genuine medical condition in an attempt to muddy the waters and confuse people about the fixed nature of sex.
And so when people make statement like "not 100%" this or that, even if you don't intend it to, these statements do a disservice to both people with DSDs and women trying to protect their rights and freedoms.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your concerns so clearly.

I am also very firmly of the view that the detailed facts matter, and I think that people on both sides have been guilty of cherry-picking or misrepresenting the facts in the way that best supports their views on the broader trans debate.

I fully accept that sex is not a spectrum, in the sense that the vast majority of people have either ovaries or testes and their bodies develop sex characteristics that reflect that (and other biological features like height and muscle development are of course also significantly affected by which reproductive system they have).

But I do also think that there are some very extreme, rare DSDs - such as those in which the gonadal tissue fails to develop into either ovaries or testes - where there are genuinely arguments either way as to how they should be categorised. Some of these individuals understandably regard themselves as intersex rather than simply male or female (and regardless of whether they identify as a man or woman in terms of gender categories). Others will strongly feel that they are male or female.

None of this really has any direct read across as to whether trans people should be respected as being of the gender they identify as, or be allowed to access spaces that correspond to their gender.

PriOn1 · 13/07/2023 11:38

Your position seems similar to mine @aseriesofstillimages

I was taught about various (animal) DSDs at university and was very much of the opinion that those with DSDs were one sex or the other and hadn’t given much thought to how that would feel if it was you affected.

After a long discussion with someone with a DSD, who advocated for those with DSDs to have the choice legally which sex they were recorded as, I spent a great deal of thought on the matter and my opinion changed.

I was also told that after years of being treated surgically and experimentally having their sex “corrected” those with DSDs were finally beginning to be better understood and treated better and when they came to an age where they could choose, that was when they could decide which sex they were most comfortable to identify with.

And then doctors came along and decided that if it worked for those with DSDs then perhaps that should also be true for men who wanted to be women, despite having XY chromosomes and unequivocally male development.

So something that had been good for those with DSDs was then hijacked. And we can all see where that has ended up.

So I’m not saying that I think sports bodies were right to open up women’s competitions t people with DSDs who had the advantage of some male puberty, but in most walks of life, giving that small concession to a tiny group of people with a medical condition ought never to have become a big deal. The fault does not lie with them and I am not exactly qualified to advocate for them, but it is a human being in a position which I can easily believe is very complex and distressing.

So my end thought was not that there were three sexes, nor that men are women, but that those with DSDs should be allowed to advocate for themselves and that perhaps it can be important to listen to others and try to understand what would improve their lives.

Clymene · 13/07/2023 12:27

Lumping all DSDs together is like lumping all disabilities together. A one size fits all approach is inadequate and inappropriate.

I'm mystified why some posters are continuing to bang on about other DSDs which Semenya doesn't have.

It's like arguing about blindness when you're talking about someone who is deaf.

aseriesofstillimages · 13/07/2023 13:28

PriOn1 · 13/07/2023 11:38

Your position seems similar to mine @aseriesofstillimages

I was taught about various (animal) DSDs at university and was very much of the opinion that those with DSDs were one sex or the other and hadn’t given much thought to how that would feel if it was you affected.

After a long discussion with someone with a DSD, who advocated for those with DSDs to have the choice legally which sex they were recorded as, I spent a great deal of thought on the matter and my opinion changed.

I was also told that after years of being treated surgically and experimentally having their sex “corrected” those with DSDs were finally beginning to be better understood and treated better and when they came to an age where they could choose, that was when they could decide which sex they were most comfortable to identify with.

And then doctors came along and decided that if it worked for those with DSDs then perhaps that should also be true for men who wanted to be women, despite having XY chromosomes and unequivocally male development.

So something that had been good for those with DSDs was then hijacked. And we can all see where that has ended up.

So I’m not saying that I think sports bodies were right to open up women’s competitions t people with DSDs who had the advantage of some male puberty, but in most walks of life, giving that small concession to a tiny group of people with a medical condition ought never to have become a big deal. The fault does not lie with them and I am not exactly qualified to advocate for them, but it is a human being in a position which I can easily believe is very complex and distressing.

So my end thought was not that there were three sexes, nor that men are women, but that those with DSDs should be allowed to advocate for themselves and that perhaps it can be important to listen to others and try to understand what would improve their lives.

That’s interesting, I think talking to people who actually have a condition often makes one much more thoughtful and aware of the complexities. I have a good friend whose daughter (only a toddler) has an intersex variation, and we’ve talked a lot about the implications for her in the future.

Circumferences · 13/07/2023 13:45

It's great that information and support is available for people with a DSD for support through the various health problems and infertility problems that come with having a DSD.

However, no human will ever produce a different gamete other than sperm or egg. A very rare minority or people will produce neither because of a DSD, but all people with a DSD are still either M or F. Sex is absolutely not a spectrum.

It's a catastrophic mistake to allow people to choose the sex on their birth certificate because we can all now see where that leads. In the rarest of cases a tiny number of babies have been incorrectly "assigned" F for example, and in these cases it should be noted that the birth sex was recorded incorrectly due to DSD after a medical diagnosis.

There should be no cases at all where people get to choose for themselves.

DSDs are so rare but people like CS have gained a huge advantage by having an incorrect birth certificate, so it's only right that their DSD is noted officially once it's become obvious after puberty.

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