Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

[QuimReaper]

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Do we know is caster the biological father of their children? Does caster produce sperm?

No, no one here posting knows that. That's information that Semenya and Semenya's partner have not shared, and is clearly their private information. I think a lot of people are drawing a conclusion from the fact that it could be possible that Semenya is the biological father (given the known DSD diagnosis) and from the assumption that if it were possible that it would be the route that the couple would go down.

@aseriesofstillimages
I fully accept that sex is not a spectrum, in the sense that the vast majority of people have either ovaries or testes and their bodies develop sex characteristics that reflect that (and other biological features like height and muscle development are of course also significantly affected by which reproductive system they have).

Sex is not a spectrum - but for the reason that there is not a spectrum of gametes. There are exactly and only two. There is no third gamete or combo gamete or half'n'half gamete. Embryos do not gradually accumulate enough of the sex characteristics of one sex to then be considered male or female. They develop primary sex characteristics according to their sex - which is fixed at conception. DSD conditions are described as sex-specific because some affect only males, the others affect only females. This is what a PP was explaining upthread - 5-ARD does not affect females because the female sex development does not require the penis-forming DHT. It's a very sensitive and complicated subject, but has been well researched.

Pseudohermaphroditism (apparent mixture of sex organs in one person) occurs because, for example, the agent which drives development of a sex characteristic out of initially undifferentiated tissue also suppresses development of the opposite sex characteristic. So if instructions to make a male sex organ are not received, the instructions not to make the female organ are also not received. But because the fetus is male, the female organ is not functional.

So whether or not you are born with the full set of functioning sex organs that you should have, you are still either female or male - because you either developed along the Mullerian pathway as a producer of large gametes or along the Wolffian pathway as a producer of small gametes - even if your development has been disrupted or impaired.

Sex is the biological role played in sexual reproduction. Even in species where sex is determined by a different factor (in crocodiles, it is the temperature the egg is incubated at) or where the same individual can be sequentially male then female (clownfish) or where hermaphroditism exists (snails), the roles are still either production of small gametes or production of large gametes. Binary.

I hope the people with DSDs that you know have lovely lives. Whatever their appearance, however they present themselves, they are nevertheless the sex that they were conceived as. And sometimes, their sex will matter.

No, no one here posting knows that. That's information that Semenya and Semenya's partner have not shared, and is clearly their private information*.

Well it would certainly help settle the debate on wether caster should be competing as a woman or not

It would certainly help the wider public to get what the problem is! AIthough it's not relevant to whether he should be eligible.

Emma Hilton discusses CS on Inside Science BBC Radio 4!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001np6v

at 20:24 approx

What is it that sets sex at conception - is it whether the embryo has a Y chromosome with a functioning SRY gene?

It doesn’t matter if CS is the biological father of their children. The things to remember is that CS has XY chromosomes, has identifiable male sexual characteristics and organs , and went through male puberty which resulted in height, muscle mass, heart and lung size and other advantages which make him better at running than most females. In addition, like other male DSD athletes competing as women, he hasn’t had to deal with monthly periods interrupting training, a female pelvis, breast development and the lack of training places and financial support for female runners available at an elite level in many countries.

@aseriesofstillimages
I'm not 100% sure but I think it's just the SRY gene - it's nearly always on the Y chromosome but occasionally it is transposed onto an X chromosome. The point is that the development pathways are parallel and it's either/or.

Helleofabore

Hooty,serieshas always held the belief that sex is a spectrum. They have had this discussion many times with us and it feels like deja vu.

Ah, deja vu, the French for a frustrating waste of time....

@viques I'd say it does matter if they've literally fathered a child too.

Why? Lots of men aren’t fathers, doesn’t mean they aren’t men. Plus the children deserve privacy about their genetic parentage just as any child does. Maybe CS fathered the children or they used a donor, whatever the answer to that question it doesn’t take away from CSs identity as a genetic man who has been through male puberty.

I think that poster meant it'd be much harder for the media etc to stick with the 'CS is a woman with naturally high testosterone' if the public knew CS had fathered a child.

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a thread on twitter explaining more of the legal side.

https://twitter.com/Ant1Duval/status/1678777058690998277

I was interested in the question about how much of a leap this is for the ECHR in terms of jurisdiction.

Thank you StormShadow it’s complex to keep up with so this is really helpful.

I get what you’re saying but I always wonder where people with CAIS fit? Obviously it’s rare but being XY, insensitive to androgens and having a body that presents as female what category do they fit in?

@bluetongue
CAIS individuals are male, with internal testes, and no uterus or ovaries. No periods , of course. A CAIS male is very likely to have female socialisation and present as a woman as well. However, in sport, due to being male, they still have strength and height advantages over women despite not having gone through male puberty. They are currently classed as female for athletics but I believe that as males with male athletic performance advantage (albeit reduced), they should be excluded from all women's and girls' sport categories.
This is a different case to Semenya, of course.

@StormShadow
I can't see the thread, any chance of a thread reader or screen shot?

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/un-experts-welcome-european-court-ruling-upholding-rights-women-athletes

Look at these experts talking bollox.

So where are the experts standing up and talking about the blatant discrimination made against women by people who are calling genetic men who have been through male puberty women. I am listening hard and I can’t hear them.

Where are the experts talking about how making women’s sport open to all women ie to men, means that real women’s sport will disappear within years as women’s records are made unattainable by natal women, women’s training places and sponsorship deals disappear and young women are discouraged frompursuing a sport they love and excel at because they know they are defeated as soon as their feet are placed in the blocks.

it is almost as though some sports bodies don’t think women’s sports are worth fighting for.

Who are these female athletes of which they speak? The rules only apply to male athletes. Did they miss this important fact?

It's awful isn't it?

And citing colour as a reason.

@viques do we know this for sure? I know that CS has a child but do we know for certain who the biological father is or is CS being vague about that?

It doesn’t really matter who the father of their children is, CS and his wife and his children deserve privacy about this if this is what they choose, as does anyone.

What matters is that a genetic male who has been through male puberty, insists on running as a female in races for women.

What matters is that national and international athletic federations have colluded in this lie and continue to do so despite the science and the evidence.

What matters is that opportunities for titles, records, sponsorship,income, recognition and fulfilment are being blatantly stolen from women who have trained, made personal sacrifices in life choices, fought through injury and dreamed of success in their chosen sphere.