Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

[QuimReaper]

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Exactly. Let's leave the kids out of this. The parentage of Casters children is irrelevant. Casters Y chromosome isn't.

It matters to me. I can’t stand the carefully constructed narrative lie, that they’re a lesbian couple just like all the other lesbian couples around the world and had to somehow acquire some sperm because there wasn’t any available 🙄.

But we can’t talk about how that lie being used to help disguise Semenya’s maleness, because it’s oh so cruel to point out they’re actually a heterosexual couple who are parents to their children, just like we couldn’t talk about it when Semenya was 18 because it’s oh so cruel to discuss the personal details of a poor young person who grew up poor and disadvantaged, and it’s oh so racist to single out Semenya because of being black…

If they’re telling their own children they have two mothers, they’re lying to their children. If they’re telling their children they are mother and father they’re lying to us. Again. Sick of it all.

That's not an argument that can be sustained given that we don't even know who the children's biological father is. Best to leave them out of it.

I think if you are objecting to carefully constructive narrative lies you need to choose the one that really matters.

I don’t think people would keen to bring the children into it if the media didn’t keep trotting out the lie that caster is a woman with unusually high testosterone. We still don’t have the vocabulary to discuss these cases sensitively but everyone knows two women aren’t having biological children together.

I have repeatedly, endlessly complained about the narrative lie that Semenya is female on every single thread and on this forum was one of the few who highlighted the truth from an early point.

The narrative of Semenya’s wife and children happy family story is the response to people edging closer and closer to being completely open with the truth in the media and public eye. The more people become aware of the reality that Semenya is male, the more heartening stories about family come out, the more victim-of-human-rights-violation stories of Semenya come out, which I believe is all part of the PR exercise to dissuade anyone from the truth in a classic “Be Kind” tactic. The narrative lie of their family is the latest in a long line of narrative lies. For that reason, I consider it perfectly reasonable for it to be considered and discussed, particularly given what is known on this specific narrative.

But it's not actually known that Caster is the father, is it?

It's not going to be known. It would blow the whole thing sky high.

Can you produced sperm if you don't have external/properly formed testes? In a "normal" boy, they either bring undescended testes down or take them out due to the risk of cancer, and because they won't produce sperm anyway.

I have a relative who had one of his testes removed because it had not descended and had atrophied way up inside his stomach. HIs fertility was unaffected due to the other one being healthy. However, in Caster's case they'd both be inside.

Yep, obviously it's not going to be known. It would only be supposition, and clearly the children have the right to privacy in a way that an athlete who knows full well they're male but wants to compete in women's races does not. Hence, best not to go there. Focus on what's already known, which is damning enough. If those DC have a different biological father, that wouldn't make Caster remotely more entitled to compete with women.

Surely the thing we need to focus attention on is not whether testosterone is "naturally high" for a woman, but whether that testosterone is being produced by the ovaries (woman) or the testes (man)?

Hold the fuck up... is this person born male? Asking bc I was sent a bbc article and asked what I thought by someone who never mentioned that, nor did the article so I was responding saying well a biological female can't help if they have a malfunction and produce more of a hormone and since it wasn't a contact sport to me it was possibly unfair but not more unfair than another woman having longer legs.

Just feeling rather uncomfortable, they know my views and they were obviously not giving me all the relevant information to talk about it

Hadn't heard of this person till yesterday

Born male, still is male. Semenya has a genetic disorder which means his genitals didn't develop properly which may have meant that when he was born they thought he was female. By the time puberty hit, it would have been obvious that he is male.

There are a lot of people with a lot of money invested in trying to pretend that isn't true.

@Clymene thanks sorry I didn't RTFT to find out - was just a bit stunned realising the manipulation in the conversation I was having with the other person aware had I been in receipt of the facts I would've responded very very differently and pissed they didn't actually acknowledge the biology to me

I’d suggest reading the thread. There is plenty of information linked up about this here on this thread.

It's been a general media narrative - Caster is a woman with unusually high testosterone rather than a male without visible bits.

@lieselotte yeah I guess the person could've not known but I think considering they specifically bought it up to ask my view knowing I'm gender critical they probably omitted that on purpose. It's a family member who is on a mission to convert me to being more "inclusive" despite I am not heterosexual and actually as a woman far more interested in the discussion than they will ever be affected by it as a straight male 🙄 just pissed at what I think is the slyness

yeah I guess the person could've not known but I think considering they specifically bought it up to ask my view knowing I'm gender critical they probably omitted that on purpose.

I think most people, including trans rights activists, genuinely don't know that Semenya is 100% male.

The mainstream media go out of their way to make sure people don't find that out.

Sure, a trans right activist who knew no doubt would omit it on purpose, but I certainly would not ever leap to the assumption that a trans activist knows what they're talking about in general, and absolutely not in this case.

You make a good point @NecessaryScene thanks

Ugh I used to think they were really intelligent and we could have mature debate - now I feel like I am being expected to say green is actually pink, like their logic just fucked off somewhere 😂

See, trans activists bring up Semenya as a sort of "sex is a spectrum" gotcha. In the sense "here is a woman who was mistaken for a man because she wasn't feminine enough. See! You can't really tell men and women apart reliably!"

And they can do that whether or not they know Semenya is male. Most probably believe what they're saying, I think.

There's also the line "GC people make no sense - they think people should be treated according to their sex/gender assignment at birth, but they don't want Semenya to compete with other women." That's somewhat harder to take seriously as a real view, but possible, I guess.

Just noticed this and thought I'd update this elderly thread rather than start a new one

Caster Semenya: South African double Olympic champion wins partial victory at European Court of Human Rights in her long legal battle over athletics' sex eligibility rules. - BBC Sport https://share.google/gRhFR8Nsjh9veH2mD

I'm not sure I understand exactly what's happened, what he's won, iiuc it seems a rather pyrrhic victory. Testosterone levels are irrelevant imo. Actually I'd be tended to agree that men should not be required to reduce T levels to compete in women's competitions. They should be ineligible because they are men. CS still seems to be fighting a battle when the war has moved on. Cheek swabs and counselling for the 'female' athletes that fail.

It looks this was in relation to the Switzerland's government and whether his Article 6 (right to a fair hearing) had been violated, which the ECHR found it had been. Thankfully, I don’t think this decision affects his inability to take part in women’s sports.

And notably it also says

However, the Grand Chamber found Semenya's complaints under Articles 8 (right to respect for private life), 13 (right to an effective remedy) and 14 (prohibition of discrimination) inadmissible as they "did not fall within Switzerland's jurisdiction".

That's interesting.

Given that we are talking about a global participation sport then there are going to be some places which take a different view on rights to privacy and if it becomes public in a global online world, it's hard to see wtf the ECHR because of jurisdiction issues. Once the cat is out the bag, you can't put it back in.

It’s a true comment.

That article is infuriating. It makes him sound like a woman with high testosterone, rather than an actual man.