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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

674 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 19/06/2023 10:36

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

Schools to be banned from letting kids change gender if parents say no

SCHOOLS will be banned from letting kids change their gender if their parents say no, The Sun can reveal. And children who want to be called by another pronoun — he, she, they — will not be able to…

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
ValancyRedfern · 22/06/2023 18:29

Any sign of these guidelines? This week appears to mean the same as 'before Christmas' did. I don't believe they are ever coming

BreatheAndFocus · 22/06/2023 18:32

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 16:54

I pretty much agree with you on most this, for what it's worth - but I'd like to respectfully disagree that 70's/80's 'gender bending' was the apex of diverse expression in human history. There's a significant perceptive skew at work here, especially in relation to the difference between celebrities challenging gendered norms for shock/spice value as part of their general persona and/or performance as artists, and wider 'ground level' cultural acceptance of these norms being systematically challenged on a daily, practical basis.

I hoped and hope it wasn’t the apex, Butterfly. I assumed that by this point, gender nonconformity would be seen as normal, as nothing to fuss about. I thought we’d progress from the 80s and pretty much all people would become more accepting. But now, all these decades later, we seem to have regressed.

When I was growing up, my dad told me that men and women were equal and that I, a girl, could do anything I wanted. He made a point of emphasising to me that ‘girl things’ and ‘boy things’ were silly and outdated. He happily dressed my brother in ‘girls colours’. Now I see some teens thinking that they must be a boy if they like ‘boy things’. I find it incredibly sad. They’re limiting themselves and seem to be reverting to 1950s stereotypes and judging themselves by them.

Yes, there were a lot of gender-bending celebs in the 80s but there were ordinary people too, especially young people who were inspired by this. I was one of them. I wore ‘boys’ clothes’ and laughed in people’s faces when they said they were ‘boys’ clothes. My friend was very GNC and my mum thought she was a boy - how we all sniggered at such old-fashionedness! But now, my mum would probably be right, and the person with very short hair, etc, would be identifying as a boy. That’s not progress.

What would be progress is for both men and women to feel able to fully express themselves no matter what their sex without fear of bullying or taunts.

Helleofabore · 22/06/2023 18:50

What you're doing with this GCSE-level biological sex essentialism is repeating the same mistakes that led to pink and blue toys and brains in the past. You're taking a complex dynamic system and assigning it an essential property while claiming that science says so

And just to repeat, no one one this thread believes in biological essentialism. I believe you have very little actual understanding of what many of us believe. And a very prejudiced view at that.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/06/2023 18:54

ValancyRedfern · 22/06/2023 18:29

Any sign of these guidelines? This week appears to mean the same as 'before Christmas' did. I don't believe they are ever coming

Indeed

I wonder if there’s some last minute discussion going on somewhere?

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 18:55

BreatheAndFocus · 22/06/2023 18:32

I hoped and hope it wasn’t the apex, Butterfly. I assumed that by this point, gender nonconformity would be seen as normal, as nothing to fuss about. I thought we’d progress from the 80s and pretty much all people would become more accepting. But now, all these decades later, we seem to have regressed.

When I was growing up, my dad told me that men and women were equal and that I, a girl, could do anything I wanted. He made a point of emphasising to me that ‘girl things’ and ‘boy things’ were silly and outdated. He happily dressed my brother in ‘girls colours’. Now I see some teens thinking that they must be a boy if they like ‘boy things’. I find it incredibly sad. They’re limiting themselves and seem to be reverting to 1950s stereotypes and judging themselves by them.

Yes, there were a lot of gender-bending celebs in the 80s but there were ordinary people too, especially young people who were inspired by this. I was one of them. I wore ‘boys’ clothes’ and laughed in people’s faces when they said they were ‘boys’ clothes. My friend was very GNC and my mum thought she was a boy - how we all sniggered at such old-fashionedness! But now, my mum would probably be right, and the person with very short hair, etc, would be identifying as a boy. That’s not progress.

What would be progress is for both men and women to feel able to fully express themselves no matter what their sex without fear of bullying or taunts.

Couldn't agree more - it makes me quite uncomfortable to see this behaviour pattern amongst kids as well.

When I've been able to, I've done what I can (as a vaguely respected, I guess, at least in circles who know I exist!) older trans person to challenge this kind of 'you like Call of Duty and wearing baseball caps: you must be a boy!' nonsense. It's important to bear in mind, though, that this often first manifests in ways that appear deeply questionable or ridiculous to us at first while people are trying to work out how to articulate how they are feeling.

We really don't help anyone by gatekeeping.

Hepwo · 22/06/2023 19:12

What a shame young people are being subjected to all this manipulative nonsense by an older person immersed in the fantasy. It's not a surprise that we're in this mess if this threads posts are the dreadful bullshit they hear from older transitioners.

The schools guidance can't come soon enough.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 19:35

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 14:53

Ok, guess we're doing this.

@Ereshkigalangcleg What you're doing with this GCSE-level biological sex essentialism is repeating the same mistakes that led to pink and blue toys and brains in the past. You're taking a complex dynamic system and assigning it an essential property while claiming that science says so.

The scientific community absolutely and categorically, at every level, has so far determined that 'it's not that simple'. You're swapping one mystical dualistic entity for another and then saying that the data structures that reside within our brains and encode everything about ourselves as people have no relevance to the discussion.

It's starkly clear to anyone who has formally studied or worked with neural networks, either biological or artificial, at a serious level that the notion that there's anything essentially and completely male or female about the end result of growing out a trained connectome under an enormous range of varying environmental factors is deeply flawed and I feel embarrassed for anyone who tries to seriously claim otherwise in light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I don't believe in gendered souls. I don't believe in sex essence. It's an illusion - a simplification of a complex, disordered reality. I believe in arrays of pattern generators organised into feedback networks functioning as behavioural simulators to extrapolate and generate future actions based upon their classification of a history of past actions and events using clouds of statistical relationships that encode a compressed form of the world as they have encountered it so far. Our minds are simulators constantly generating the actions of the person we recognise ourselves to be. That's it. There's no magic gender soul there. Just the awkward, fuzzy, imperfect outcome of billions of tiny biomachines carving up a statistical landscape.

Is the self-classification my brain has maintained throughout and since childhood wrong? Possibly. Should I have internally 'naturally' resolved my dysphoria and become a male adult? It's a nice neat compelling argument but I'm afraid I'm rather allergic to teleology, as every other feminist should rightly be as well. I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female.

The GC philosophical stance that there is no such thing as a gendered soul - which I agree with - rightly demands that neural networks do not magically know what they are - they have to work it out - but then in the same breath...assigns an immutable, sexed essence to every neurological structure that has ever lived. There's no magic sex here, I'm afraid. The god of the gaps has shrunk once again, and this 'biological sex' claim only works on people who've never thought critically on the subject since school.

Either:

  1. Sex is an inherent, binding property that always applies in binary totality to the entirety of a human organism from the moment of conception, and people do not 'become' male or female - they just magically hold this essential essence. Growing up as and existing within a female body is thus just irrelevant window-dressing - you already have a female essence and the concept of socialisation is irrelevant. Genetic mutations are deviations from the essential sex from which all humans are derived. What you are may as well be written into the stars.
  2. Sex is a convenient shorthand we use to summarise the enormous constellation of statistically linked states that can arise from the expression of the specific structures of complex polypeptide chains that form a human organism's genetic code. Gender identity - a component of sex - is a convenient shorthand we use to summarise the enormous constellation of statistically linked states that can arise from the expression of emergent behaviours in interlinked biological neural networks grown in line with a genetically defined connectome and trained through decades of exposure to environmental and societal factors as part of embodied existence.

I know which one makes sense to me.

Today I realised how stupid some people are. You have entirely misrepresented what everyone has said to fit your nonsense.
There is no evidence of gendered brain scans because there are no differences that would allow you to predict from a scan whether someone us male or female. Because personality is irrelevant! Only your body determines your sex. Of course gender stereotypes exist but the fact they are different in different cultures shows gender is not based on universal biology but socialisation.

Also to the op, i don't know where you've got the idea that Scotland I better than England on this, they've been pushing it harder for longer and the gov backs it. It's Scotland that tried to remove parents right and bring in a named person in local gov to override them which was struck down by the high courts possibly internationally. It is Scotland that always pushes taking away parental responsibility especially with trans stuff.
And England pshe guidance has been anti stereotypes since the 90s way before Scotland so you are very very mistaken on this matter.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 19:37

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 18:55

Couldn't agree more - it makes me quite uncomfortable to see this behaviour pattern amongst kids as well.

When I've been able to, I've done what I can (as a vaguely respected, I guess, at least in circles who know I exist!) older trans person to challenge this kind of 'you like Call of Duty and wearing baseball caps: you must be a boy!' nonsense. It's important to bear in mind, though, that this often first manifests in ways that appear deeply questionable or ridiculous to us at first while people are trying to work out how to articulate how they are feeling.

We really don't help anyone by gatekeeping.

How can you not see this I what you do and are doing? Your whole explanation for you feeling trans was a list of stereotypes and social norms!

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 19:40

Basically we just don't believe that how you feel has any relevance to your sex. Have a willy and feel and do and dress however you like! But don't say a feeling makes you change sex. Feelings are irrelevant. Identity is irrelevant you have a vag or penis that's it. It describes nothing about you.

Kucinghitam · 22/06/2023 19:46

I like this game - is it called How Many Polysylllabic Words Can I Make Salad With To Convey The Message "Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me"? Grin

terryleather · 22/06/2023 19:50

ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 18:19

No man can know what it is to be a woman.

Indeed.

And as Lisa Muggeridge so rightly said we don't need to "debate" being a women. They do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2023 20:00

This is the only poster I've seen on this forum who has actively and directly misgendered a trans woman in a consistent fashion over multiple posts, rather than the near-ubiquitous pattern of passively doing so by either avoiding pronouns altogether or religiously using they. The effect is identical, of course, but I've just not seen the quiet part said out loud.

Does it please you that you can stop women being able to speak naturally about male people's biological sex? Unfortunately for you you can't compel us to call males she, there are always ways around it. Sorry and all.

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 20:01

@Boomboom22 I advise reading what I wrote, rather than what you think I wrote.

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

Being happy with the way that people gendered you correctly when you had long hair, consistently recognising yourself as a girl even from a particularly young age, feeling a sense of relief over having a sluggish puberty and finding exclusively male changing spaces to be intensely unpleasant and oppressive, however - well, that's a bit of a classic.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 20:04

Ok fo and read some Kohlberg or how Money was discredited. You do not have a better knowledge of this topic in fact you are so biased you cant really engage with it!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2023 20:05

Classic that you were uncomfortable being in a male environment and found puberty difficult. Like many kids. Indicative of literally nothing else.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 20:05

And nowhere near all men act as you think either. Perhaps your military family has strict gender roles but that is not reflect in most men under 40. I know fewer men who like sport than hate it!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2023 20:06

My brother hates football. Perhaps he's actually a woman.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 20:07

As a teacher who teaches pshe I can tell you categorically that noone is happy with puberty! You are no unusual. All the other boys felt uncomfortable too, the loud banter in pe changing rooms was an expression of that! And all girls find the male gaze disturbing from about 11 to 13. They don't want it. That's not a female thing.

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 20:10

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 20:04

Ok fo and read some Kohlberg or how Money was discredited. You do not have a better knowledge of this topic in fact you are so biased you cant really engage with it!

Intimately familiar with Kohlberg, my friend. And with the cavalcade of horrors that was Money.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 20:11

I also really strongly think you are overeating unusual at the time. I am 40 and being gender non conforming in the 90s was conformity in many ways not unusual. It sounds like your family were way more traditional than most which was the problem not you or your behaviour being wrong with the fix being you either take drastic harmful life limiting medications forever that will definitely shorten your life amd probably disable you. Or you change your behaviour.
Everyone here thinks you didn't need to do that and can just be you however you want to be whilst accepting your body. That does not mean you need to change your behaviour, just be who you want without harm to you and without violating single sex spaces. Be feminine. Have all female friends. Dress in skirts. Just don't say that makes you a woman.

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 20:13

Over egging. To fit your story. I understand why you have to and I'm so so sorry for what you thought you had to do to yourself.
I just don't want anyone else to ever do that harm to themselves and you are actively encouraging others to do so.
If you really are up with all the bio and psych knowledge you should know this already?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/06/2023 20:13

I wonder if the problem is not feeling awkward and uncomfortable as a teenager, but rather being too self absorbed and uninterested in others to notice that literally everyone else feels the same way

there does seem to be a consistent theme in the type of people who come here to talk about their gender identity

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2023 20:21

Nail on head, Bernard.

Signalbox · 22/06/2023 20:23

And finding exclusively male changing spaces to be intensely unpleasant and oppressive

Yes and guess how the women in the previously exclusive female changing rooms feel when the men who found exclusively male changing spaces to be intensely unpleasant and oppressive appear in our spaces?

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 20:38

@Boomboom22 Not sure what I should be feeling like I need to justify - I bloody love my life!

It's far, far more than I could ever have asked for or imagined. I'm affluent, successful and well liked with a great career. I have an enormous group of friends and am well known and respected within the communities I'm active in with a reputation for being quirky and entertaining and a good and supportive listener. Throughout my twenties and thirties I've had a happy and fulfilling sex life and that shows little sign of changing. Family friends who visited a few weeks ago and whom I haven't seen for about two decades remarked on how my sister and I look almost indistinguishable. I'm happy, attractive and healthy - I'm a little sad that I wasn't able to have kids like my sister was, but I'm loving being a kick-ass aunt and helping her bring hers up.

I'm really not sure what more I could ask for, and I'm acutely aware that far fewer of those things would be true if I hadn't transitioned when I did and had the opportunities I'd had because of it.

I'm afraid 'you never needed to do this' 'I'm so sorry you felt you had to' style comments and alluding to supposedly life-shortening and disability generating treatments isn't going to land here, my friend.

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