"I don't give a shit about the scientific explanations. If they identify as a women, they get to compete in sports"

[EdgeOfACoin]

Emma Vigeland, presenter on The Majority Report, a "progressive" internet talk radio programme and podcast, has made it crystal clear that gender identity trumps fairness when it comes to sport.

Unfortunately I'm not tech savvy enough to clip the relevant section from the show directly, but plenty of other have, including Triggernometry presenter Konstantin Kisin, who Tweeted about it. You can see the video on his Twitter page:

https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1662390264005120001?t=3-gYh1LvSAt93Fh1N68boA&s=19

Emma has not backed down from her comments and has since mocked "terfs" for being "triggered" by her, declaring that "gender affirming care" for minors would solve all of the problems anyway:

https://twitter.com/EmmaVigeland/status/1662491715352010752

Emma has unequivocally declared that she is right on this issue.

Fascinating to see any pretence that the subject is "complicated" has gone - no, if a person with a penis wants to compete in women's sports, then that takes priority over everything else, including fairness.

As a side note, she used to be a presenter on The Young Turks and made a (very) half-hearted attempt to defend her former colleague Ana Kasparian last month after Ana lost patience with being referred to as a "birthing person". (Interestingly, Ana hasn't retreated from her own comments either.)

Non binary men rarely do much to themselves. Gender nullification is rare.

The women get mastectomies and micro dose with testosterone

I don't know, I think non binary could be the key to it all unravelling.

There was a real facepalm moment a while back when the mother of a female non binary person who competed in a new non binary category in a sporting competition in the US complained that it wasn't fair for AMAB non binary people to compete against AFAB non binary people and they should have separate categories.

Arguably, female athletes should all identify as non binary and then demand new categories for AMAB non binary and AFAB non binary.

This is a tremendous idea, but I would like to suggest a subtle adjustment.

Lets organise competition categories according to shoe size.

I actually think this would be more far more fair than pretty much any other category parameter we could choose. All the size fours could race each other, the size fives, size sixes ... all the way through to sizes 13s.

That's not very inclusive towards people with larger or smaller feet than 4 and 13. Anyway, it's what you identify your foot size as which matters, not the facts.

As a woman with size 7 feet, I am not quite convinced about this.

You could identify as having size 4s? Though all the cheating men will do so too.

That lady has so much anger.

I bet she doesn't even truly "give a shit" about trans people either, just about fighting some sort of moral war so that she can feel like she is making history as some amazing social justice warrior.

Yes @BernardBlacksMolluscs that was me! I am shocked.

I was not using inflammatory language, but simply referring to what we know is an aspect of "gender-affirming" care. It is a fact, that the process happens either surgically or medically, if cross-sex or puberty-delaying artificial hormones are used.

Clearly my technical language scared someone!

Good. This is the honesty that has been lacking.

It's not complicated. There's no science proving it's not a problem. They just don't give a shit.

I hope she shouts this from the rafters.

If they micro dose with testosterone, then I don't see how they can compete in female sports.

I think university sport is a concern to ensure the events at the Oxford Union today. When people watch the Oxford v Cambridge boat race aren't they going to question the sex of female rowers given the student body stance on transgender inclusi on. Won't students round on their university sporting bodies as the epitome of transphobia if they fail to include men in their women's sides?

This in itself is a feminist issue.

Look at the difference between the treatment of transgender males and transgender females in sport.

Transgender males:

Have been allowed to compete in women's sports after taking cross sex hormones, even though their testosterone is still many times higher than that of any woman (even one with a condition such as PCOS) and even though hormone treatment doesn't eliminate the natural physical advantages of having gone through male puberty, thus putting female athletes at a competitive disadvantage.

They therefore get to have their cake and eat it: hormones, and competing in the sporting category of their choice regardless of the impact on female athletes.

Female athletes who object are shamed into silence or accused of transphobia if they dare speak up.

Transgender females:

Are not allowed to compete in any sport at all if they have been taking testosterone because it is a performance enhancing substance, even though their testosterone is still many times lower than that of any man and even though they have not gone through male puberty and are therefore highly unlikely to even be competitive against male athletes, let alone beat them all to the winners' podium.

They therefore have to choose: hormones, or competing in sport, in the women's category. This is despite the fact that there is no impact on male athletes.

Male athletes don't object because they are unaffected.

Do you see it yet?

It's almost as if, whichever impact of gender identity theory is under discussion, and regardless of whether the person or people being discussed identify as men or women, it is always, ALWAYS the ones who were born with a penis who reap the benefits.

Really good point.

I do feel as though ftm transitioners have fallen for the biggest lie in the world.

It's internalised misogyny, often neurodiversity and/or history of abuse, leading to fear of womanhood and a desperate attempt to opt out of it.

Even if they don't actually believe they can be men, I can see how some women might want to reject womanhood to the point where society no longer bothers to judge them according to traditional stereotypes and expectations of women, and they become largely invisible instead. I don't feel that way myself but I can understand the attraction if you were really miserable and uncomfortable in your womanhood.

This is not correct. Females who take testosterone and have male gender identity are allowed to compete in the open/men's category.

You are right that they have no chance, but you are wrong that they are not allowed to compete at all.

Would taking testosterone not be considered doping?

Transgenderism is like heart attacks: different in men and in women. If one rubric is used to cover either condition in both sexes, women lose out. Every time.

Transgenderism in women appears to be escape from womanhood. In men it appears to be consumption of womanhood.

In women it appears to be a different way of interacting with society. In men it appears to be subversion of society.

Not when it's a contact sport.

Really? Is it not doping?

I tried to have a look for information about ftm transitioners on testosterone but I couldn't find much. The debate, unsurprisingly, concentrates on male-bodied people in women's sports.

That said, I suppose Chris Mosier (poster child for ftm transitioners, as Mosier has had a level of success in the somewhat obscure duathlon event) competes against men.

I'm pretty sure they're not. Iszak Henig has complained about this rule.

This. And in both cases, the problem is patriarchy.

This is what drives me nuts about liberal "feminists" claiming that defining women as female people is patriarchal.

What could be more patriarchal than defining women as people who perform feminine stereotypes and forbidding female people from defining themselves by reference to sex, not gender?

I think the rule for female athletes on testosterone varies. I was told with derision on twitter a while back that transmen could get a Therapeutic Use Exemption for testosterone in all sport based on the concept that they are men with dangerously low testosterone levels. I certainly read that men (the sex) in the US with low testosterone levels have recently been allowed a TUE in lower level sport but not elite sport. I think that was all about athletics, which might make sense in that 'track and field' is not that big a deal in the US.

Thanks for this. It had never occurred to me that taking testosterone makes ftm trans people ineligible to compete in sports. Seems obvious now you've pointed it out.