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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Antipodean fruit growers 3 - Is the Kiwi a Dodo or a Phoenix?

833 replies

Bosky · 26/05/2023 03:34

Continuation thread from Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632616-antipodean-fruit-growers-2-canary-in-the-internet-coal-mine

Front row seat on the seemingly eternal battle between Jersh (aka Suzi Quatro's Fat Nan) and his Merry Band of Farmers against the Transpowered Forces of Internet Censorship.

1st Thread - Antipodean fruit grower statement
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4620584-antipodean-fruit-grower-statement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
60
Fruityful · 29/03/2025 12:16

DeanElderberry · 29/03/2025 09:42

They'd need to do like Mumsnet a few weeks back and prevent the display of images. Which couldn't happen.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Is the implication that you think Ofcom's issue with the Farms is to do with image sharing on there? It's far from an image sharing site and images there are usually either humour or documenting something, like a screenshot of a tweet or video of someone's behaviour.

Contrast that with Reddit which someone mentioned where you can right now log in and find rape and abuse fetish forums (subreddits in their terms) complete with explicit video and images.

On the Farms the most popular images being posted right now are Studio Ghibli versions of popular memes. Which I wish I could share or link to here to show you what I mean.

The UK gov's issue with the Farms is two-fold. Firstly it's a Free Speech site and you can say whatever you want about race, trans lobby, gender, whatever. You might get mocked for it but you're allowed. The limits are basically sexually explicit stuff, "fedposting" (i.e. incitements or instructions to violence) and interfering with the "cows" (people from whom the Farmers derive entertainment) - you're supposed to document without touching. Free discourse is not allowed under UK law which regards "causing offence" as "harm".

The UK's second issue with the Farm's is the PR hatchet job that gets regularly done on it by the trans lobby, particularly in the person of Liz Fong-Jones, who repeatedly call it a "doxing forum" and try to get it shut down.

Possibly I misunderstood your post. But the KiwiFarms targeting doesn't really concern image hosting.

DeanElderberry · 29/03/2025 12:34

No, it was a response to the post before mine that said: As a suggestion to Ofcom, if they're so concerned about online safety, they could perhaps begin by taking down literally every porn site?

I know that it would not be possible tor Ofcom to prevent all image sharing. And know how much I would miss all the non-porn on-line images that enrich my life.

Fruityful · 29/03/2025 12:38

Porn sites without images and video seems an unusual idea. I've got to admit, my mental image of a black screen that just has an audio track of "Uh... uhh.... uhhh... yesssss!" is amusing, though.

UtopiaPlanitia · 29/03/2025 12:52

Reddit has disgusting forums that centre around sexual mistreatment and debasement of women and girls so why isn’t Ofcom tackling those as a matter of urgency???

Is it perhaps because Josh is one man whereas Reddit is a massive international company with lawyers???

Ofcom are looking for an easy win - they obviously don’t want to take down big sites like Reddit or OnlyFans cos that might piss lots of people off. Better to go for the sites that worthy people dislike, lots of pats on the back available at dinner parties for doing that 🙄

allstarsuperstar · 29/03/2025 13:09

I've suspected Adolescence had ulterior motives from the start, tbh.

And @UtopiaPlanitia - you are so right, this is an "easy win" for the powers that be, because KF is so comparatively niche compared to the tech giants with their legion lawyers. In much the same way self-ID is an "easy win" instead of doing the hard graft of improving and investing in mental health services.

DeanElderberry · 29/03/2025 13:17

Is any other country doing this to Kf or is a UK solo run?

Fruityful · 29/03/2025 13:28

UtopiaPlanitia · 29/03/2025 12:52

Reddit has disgusting forums that centre around sexual mistreatment and debasement of women and girls so why isn’t Ofcom tackling those as a matter of urgency???

Is it perhaps because Josh is one man whereas Reddit is a massive international company with lawyers???

Ofcom are looking for an easy win - they obviously don’t want to take down big sites like Reddit or OnlyFans cos that might piss lots of people off. Better to go for the sites that worthy people dislike, lots of pats on the back available at dinner parties for doing that 🙄

That's an interesting and non-simple question. The block is self-imposed, Ofcom didn't do that, Josh did. He also voluntarily posted the letter he received. It's entirely possible that Reddit has received a similar letter. The letter in itself doesn't actually carry any enforcement and the UK govt. hasn't yet figured out how or when they'll start enforcing it (that they've disclosed).

Lets face it, Josh has a rather contrarian disposition (site would be long gone if he didn't). He's taken great exception to our government presuming to tell him and his country what they can and can't host. This letter is at most a prelude to action. They may even be regretting the attention he has drawn to it.

For interest, here are Ofcom's pages about it:
Quick guide to illegal content risk assessments - Ofcom
Risk Assessment Guidance and Risk Profiles

The second one which contains the full guidance is the one with the fine detail. There's guidance in there which would raise hackles on the Farms even if there was a willingness to comply with another country's laws. Anonymous users are listed as a risk factor. Well anybody openly posting on the Farms under their own name is a rarity. Caroline Farrow being the most notable open poster, though there are others.

Though having skim-read through it a lot of the guidance actually wouldn't be a problem in practice. Like there's a firearms section about trading weapons but nobody buys or sells anything on the Farms. The thing is though, he'd still have to go through every "risk factor" like this filling out the section. I really don't see Josh of all people going through an 84 page form at the required annual frequency (or ever). It doesn't help that they're requiring him to submit his assessment by the 16th of March this year and the letter is dated the 26th.

The site and guidance generally reads well-intentioned to me. I can give the benefit of the doubt to the people who wrote it that they were genuinely trying to solve the problem of dangerous content online. And that they had many a civil service meeting to think up all the things that should be checked. But the outcome is something broadly unworkable and we've seen small UK forums voluntarily shut down because they feel they either can't comply or that they feel this is putting the legal burden on them for what users do on their services.

It's not bad for a forum to have measures in place to prevent harm. And if someone posts something illegal on the Farms or calls for illegal actions, the userbase itself is pretty pro-active about shutting that down quickly. (They call inciting illegal behaviour "fedposting" under the belief that it's likely a Fed trying to provoke someone into agreeing). But there's a line between having measures in place to make sure your site is safe and being legally responsible if someone posts something they shouldn't. Big players can handle that. Smaller sites can't.

Woman using two monitors at work

Quick guide to illegal content risk assessments

Under the Online Safety Act, most regulated services will have to carry out a risk assessment. Find out what this means for you.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/online-safety/illegal-and-harmful-content/quick-guide-to-online-safety-risk-assessments/

UtopiaPlanitia · 29/03/2025 18:05

I don't like the attitude this government (and previous) governments have had to the internet, free speech, and privacy.

The Labour government have required Apple to give them access to citizen's data stored in iCloud (so UK citizens no longer have access to Apple's advanced data protection options for their personal info - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgj54eq4vejo and now Ofcom is sending ridiculous risk assessment forms to owners of internet forums.

I'm beginning to be very envious of America's first and fourth amendment rights for citizens.

Bosky · 29/03/2025 22:25

Fruityful · 29/03/2025 12:38

Porn sites without images and video seems an unusual idea. I've got to admit, my mental image of a black screen that just has an audio track of "Uh... uhh.... uhhh... yesssss!" is amusing, though.

There is the text-based one that the WPATH SOC8 links to.

NHS Scotland links to Eunuch Archive
14 June 2022
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4569010-nhs-scotland-links-to-eunuch-archive

WPATH leaks
5 March 2024
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5021764-wpath-leaks

Newcastle Gender Dysphoria Service links to WPATH SOC8
10 March 2024
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5021764-wpath-leaks?page=5&reply=133649506

Fetishes, Paraphilias, the WHO and the Eunuchs.
25 May 2024
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5082619-5082619-fetishes-paraphilias-the-who-and-the-eunuchs

Latest Reduxx article on WPATH
6 Jan 2025
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5245988-5245988-latest-reduxx-article-on-wpath

Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health links to WPATH SOC8
25 June 2024
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5104885-senior-us-politician-rachel-levine-pressured-wpath-into-removing-age-guidelines-from-soc-8rom-soc-8?reply=136283894

OP posts:
Christinapple · 29/03/2025 23:45

People need to be careful what they wish for. Protesting too strongly about wanting tighter controls for the internet in Britain because porn sites exist will lead to them having to comply with age verification etc or be blocked, but it also kickstarts a slippery slope. As well as porn anything the Gov thinks is harmful will be added to, give it time more and more stuff will be added the Gov just doesn't want us to see. More people should have stood up against the Safety Bill as it passed it's (very long) journey through parliament. Bills pass easily if there's no resistance.

And yes, the internet is international, Ofcom or anyone else doesn't have the power to take down sites. and no one can stop internet users here by using TOR or a VPN or creating your own VPN (for more advanced users) which most of the boomer politicians who wrote the law won't even know about. ISPs could block VPNs yes and cut Britain's internet off from the rest of the world, but if it comes to that then we'd have internet similar to that of China or N. Korea's.

As a user above pointed out, the Gov in this country has a beef with encryption which led to Apple giving British users less security for cloud data compared to other countries (but it does not mean the Gov can randomly look at your phone's photo gallery, don't trust misinformation by Elon Musk). They say it's so keep us safe from bad guys but IMO it's about control. The Gov can't stand the fact users can use encryption to have private conversations without them being able to eavesdrop anytime they want. The online bill came close to forcing encrypted messenger apps like Whatsapp to install a "backdoor", and many apps including the mentioned Whatsapp have said they wouldn't comply with this if it happened and would withdraw from Britain completely.

The Online Harm Safety Bill is the sort of thing that looks good on paper but is a complete mess that does not benefit out internet or society.

LittleBigHead · 30/03/2025 09:26

But is the Online Safety act moving to remove online porn?

I don’t think do.

That says everything about how stupid the Act is.

Christinapple · 30/03/2025 20:10

LittleBigHead · 30/03/2025 09:26

But is the Online Safety act moving to remove online porn?

I don’t think do.

That says everything about how stupid the Act is.

No, and Ofcom also don't have the power to take down sites. Porn (between consenting adults with restrictions on "extreme" content) isn't illegal in the UK or most developed countries either. (Fun fact- porn is illegal in Iceland for feminist reasons, it's completely unenforced though and no attempt was made to block internet porn.)

The idea behind it is to have porn sites require age verification (they have to agree to do this and manually do it themselves, many won't) and block the ones who don't.

Workaround as everyone here seems to know already- use TOR or a VPN and set it to any country other than the UK.

Will it also prevent people from accessing porn who don't know about VPNs? Some US states have introduced age verification for porn sites which meant Pornhub voluntarily withdrew from those states unwilling to comply with age verification demands. The result was simply people going back to search engines to find another porn site, which runs the risk of ending up on a lesser known dodgy one that doesn't take the same precautions the major ones like Pornhub does.

allstarsuperstar · 31/03/2025 04:40

God bless Pornhub. So ethical and caring ♥️

Fruityful · 31/03/2025 10:22

Christinapple · 30/03/2025 20:10

No, and Ofcom also don't have the power to take down sites. Porn (between consenting adults with restrictions on "extreme" content) isn't illegal in the UK or most developed countries either. (Fun fact- porn is illegal in Iceland for feminist reasons, it's completely unenforced though and no attempt was made to block internet porn.)

The idea behind it is to have porn sites require age verification (they have to agree to do this and manually do it themselves, many won't) and block the ones who don't.

Workaround as everyone here seems to know already- use TOR or a VPN and set it to any country other than the UK.

Will it also prevent people from accessing porn who don't know about VPNs? Some US states have introduced age verification for porn sites which meant Pornhub voluntarily withdrew from those states unwilling to comply with age verification demands. The result was simply people going back to search engines to find another porn site, which runs the risk of ending up on a lesser known dodgy one that doesn't take the same precautions the major ones like Pornhub does.

This is a very real risk. We can be pretty certain that any attempt by the government to actually enforce age restrictions on porn will be mostly ineffective because, well, it's the government. But what it could well achieve is exactly what you describe.

What their approach should be, imo, is to provide a Third Party verification system that is double-blind. So you can register with the service that you're an adult via whatever means are acceptable - passport, NI number, whatever. And that service can be queried by a provider of adult services without actually knowing who the person is or logging anything that can be used to identify them. There are technical ways of doing this sort of double-blind system and in fact they're widely used for other purposes.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. An effective way of curtailing underage access to porn is a win and this would do it in a way that wouldn't have the drastic side-effects of granting the government invasive powers that would be misused. And mainstream porn companies would go along with it rather than die on that hill because it's the least damaging option for them. And with that in place it would become easier to limit access by kids.

This could also be integrated into big sites like Reddit that have abuse content on there. Or Discord. Age-restricted areas of these sites could be introduced.

The question isn't would this solve everything, it's would it have a large positive effect? And I think yes. There are ways to do this and have third party audits to guarantee that the "Adult Verification Service" is only returning a yes/no without identifying information.

BordoisAgain · 31/03/2025 10:57

I'm just trying to square the whole sexwork is work and empowers women with the but I need to hide the fact that I access it argument.

Christinapple · 31/03/2025 11:14

Pornhub has safety features many other lesser known porn sites don't have. Anyone uploading a video has to verify their identify first, uploaded videos need to be checked, I think there are new rules in transition where people in the videos need their identities verified too, all videos uploaded by non-verified users were deleted a few years back, there are restrictions on what can be searched for (there's a list of blocked search words which the site won't attempt to search for).

There are other porn sites where anyone can upload anything and search for anything for contrast.

There's also been some porky pies going around. Julie Bindel once claimed, incorrectly, PH had a "war r*pe category".

Christinapple · 31/03/2025 11:22

Fruityful · 31/03/2025 10:22

This is a very real risk. We can be pretty certain that any attempt by the government to actually enforce age restrictions on porn will be mostly ineffective because, well, it's the government. But what it could well achieve is exactly what you describe.

What their approach should be, imo, is to provide a Third Party verification system that is double-blind. So you can register with the service that you're an adult via whatever means are acceptable - passport, NI number, whatever. And that service can be queried by a provider of adult services without actually knowing who the person is or logging anything that can be used to identify them. There are technical ways of doing this sort of double-blind system and in fact they're widely used for other purposes.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. An effective way of curtailing underage access to porn is a win and this would do it in a way that wouldn't have the drastic side-effects of granting the government invasive powers that would be misused. And mainstream porn companies would go along with it rather than die on that hill because it's the least damaging option for them. And with that in place it would become easier to limit access by kids.

This could also be integrated into big sites like Reddit that have abuse content on there. Or Discord. Age-restricted areas of these sites could be introduced.

The question isn't would this solve everything, it's would it have a large positive effect? And I think yes. There are ways to do this and have third party audits to guarantee that the "Adult Verification Service" is only returning a yes/no without identifying information.

What you're describing is similar to what is already planned. However anyone who verifies their age will have this logged along with their porn activity (and oh boy, just imagine if a hacker got hold of that data. Remember Ashley Madison breach of 2015?), which means a lot of adults are just going to use a VPN even though can can verify.

"sites like Reddit that have abuse content"

It's funny how some here try to pretend kiwifarms is a nice safe site which reddit has "abuse". Possibly some just don't like reddit because the users there are dominantly non-gender-critical?

BordoisAgain · 31/03/2025 11:54

Is it somehow shameful to watch empowered women just doing their fully legal jobs or something 🤷🏼‍♀️

UtopiaPlanitia · 31/03/2025 16:59

Off the top of my head, there have been Reddit groups such as r/womenintrouble, r/rapekink, r/sonmom, r/guro (gore porn), r/beatingwomen, r/breedingmaterial, r/preggoporn… the list is VERY long and VERY disturbing.

I don’t wish to shut down Reddit users discussing political and philosophical matters, not even matters on which we disagree; however, I do want to shut down Reddit forums with disgusting misogynist and abusive material.

Fruityful · 31/03/2025 17:00

@Christinapple
> "What you're describing is similar to what is already planned. However..."

Well yes. The "however" is the point. It's a critical difference in implementation and technically doable.

> "It's funny how some here try to pretend kiwifarms is a nice safe site which reddit has "abuse". Possibly some just don't like reddit because the users there are dominantly non-gender-critical?"

But KiwiFarms is a safe site. Unless you're harmed by words and opinions. And it's anonymous so you're not likely to get harassed. Porn would get taken down pretty quickly. Reddit, aside form censoring gender-critical views (the Farms doesn't censor opinions full stop), has countless images of abuse, degradation porn, weird furry fetish stuff I don't even want to think about. But they will ban you for saying transwomen are men, though.

LittleBigHead · 31/03/2025 19:06

I think my comment about porn in relation to the Online Safety Bill is a wry observation that internet content in which male populations are so heavily invested, and which requires the abuse & rape of women, doesn't seem to feature in anyone's thinking, because free speech, of course.

Male supremacy, more like. And wait until the Bill is used to limit women's speech because it's hurty to the menz.

There's a wonderful episode of Redfem podvast where Jen Isaakson and Hannah Berelli really go to town about this - it's their most recent free epi "DARVO."

www.buzzsprout.com/1809268

Christinapple · 31/03/2025 19:56

"But [reddit] will ban you for saying transwomen are men, though."

No they won't and you know it. They will ban users and subs that are frequently homophobic or transphobic though- you know, the non-stop insinuation of harmful tropes that LGBT people are perverts, hateful memes and images, doxxing and stalking people... the stuff kiwifarms does.

Fruityful · 31/03/2025 21:56

Says I "know" they don't ban people for it. Two sentences later admits that they ban whole subreddits and users for "transphobia" which by their definitions includes the horror of "misgendering".

And I don't agree that the posting of memes or documenting of sexual crimes of trans people makes Kiwifarms "unsafe" which was what you implied. Safest site on the Internet - only place remaining you can speak your mind without getting into trouble.

Anyway, I'm happy with my opinions and I don't really think you're convincing anybody else so I'm wrapping this up.

In more interesting news, an anonymous benefactor has taken on representing KiwiFarms against Ofcom. And it appears to have been sent to a few Congressional committees, too! Time will tell if anything comes of that.