Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Or on the thread they were talking about?

Anyway, when I saw the thread’s night shift come on duty, I got this earworm - one of my favourite Banshees songs.

Yeah a lot of the regular FWR posters hadn't actually been on that thread or read past the first few posts so hadn't actually seen the posts that were problematic but if all those other posters who had issues with it had apparently read it at the time why are the posts still up?

On the site thread a post went up at 4am. I reported it about 7.30 am and they got around to deleting it this afternoon. Which means there has been plenty of time to report posts and get them deleted on the Disney one.

Was the idea to start a thread that didn't make sense, take advantage of the lack of footfall to post something problematic, then start another incoherent thread elsewhere to denounce all members of the section your original problematic thread was on for not reading it and objecting?

The starting theory seems to be that if you're boring enough you can hide anything.

That would be my suspicion too, except the OP appears to be a regular in FWR.

All very rum.

btw funnelfan, thank you for your language adjustment as described upthread. I know language is full of micro aggressions, but would have had more sympathy with the poster arguing that on that thread if they didn't declare their British birth as something that gave them special privilege. I think they'd read the theory but hadn't examined the extent to which they themselves are embedded in ruling class structures.

I increasingly feel that wealth and poverty, and class coded issues, are the real problem for people trying to live their lives, and that the advertising industry's exploitation of people's need for the comfort of status is driving a lot of dangerous behavior - not just around women's lives, and not just around the lives of people of colour and diverse ethnicity. We can do two things - try to be good individuals, examining or own attitudes and actions, and try to support what is good in our communities and societies.

The kind of 'my country right or wrong' mindset the genderists are displaying, with genderism standing in for country, precludes questioning and doubt, and that is so dangerous - and leaves them wide open for exploitation.

Yes @DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry , I can contrast the graciousness and patience of the posters I encountered who must have had that conversation again and again, with the unhelpful “educate yourself” response we were getting last night. I can totally understand why it is soul destroying to keep having that kind of conversation, but I’d say if you can’t face doing it that day, just report the offending post if it doesn’t bear leaving up.

although I tend to agree with Alisondonut that I prefer to let problematic posts stay up and leave it to other posters to respond and let the reader decide for themselves based in the strength of rationale.

Your theory on the root problem is very interesting and could be a thread of it’s own!

I do actually tend to leave most posts to stand whether I agree with them or not as I think that is better than deleting stuff. I do tend to report if someone does the well that's a shit rule im going to ignore it shtick to actually prove that we aren't talking out of our arse and that this site does have rules.

And every now and again they're will be a post where it is so out of order you know as you press report you will get a sorry for the mass email from mnhq as everyone pressed that button at the same time.

And very very occasionally I'll report because I'm just in that sort of mood.

But the rest I tend to leave.

I do have someone who reports a lot of my posts for deletion. As the majority of my deleted ones are about one person I have a fair idea who's reporting them.

Excellent Twitter thread here: twitter.com/ajkaywriter/status/1675899073239584769?s=61&t=5wM6rrCIVAeqWs6wZl1YCQ

What's it about? Not a few of us can't access Twitter...

From A.J.Kay 1 of 10
"It finally makes sense to me why trans-identifying people claim that failing to “affirm” their preferred gender equates with “denying their existence”

(&, tangentially, why they lean so hard on stereotypes.)

1/10"

Material reality is measurable & observable.

We can agree what sex a baby is when it’s born (intersex disorders excepted) because we can perceive that reality with our senses.

Existence of X doesn’t require external validation b/c it exists irrespective of such.

2/10

When something exists only in one’s imagination, the only way to root that imagined entity in the material world is to get other people to agree that they perceive it and act accordingly.

If others perceive it, too, it now exists outside one’s imagination.

3/10

For example, I can imagine that I have unlimited money, but that doesn’t change my bank balance.

However — if ppl started playing along with my fantasy &, say, accepted fake money printed on my crappy inkjet as currency, that fantasy would have some tangible basis in reality…

4/10

Similarly, the acquisition of observable (facsimiles of) traits associated w/ the oppo sex is an effort to elicit the external validation which would make the fantasy “real.”

Adopting pre-existing, sex stereotypes (and their baked in sex assns) facilitate this process.

5/10

But when people don’t affirm the fantasy, it loses its footing in reality.

Of course, the trans person doesn’t cease to exist as a living entity — but their fantasy-self reverts to existing only in their mind as soon as people stop pretending it is observable.

6/10

And that last sentence articulates the fundamental disconnect between trans people saying “You’re denying my existence!” & people who decline to affirm saying, “You still exist — you’re literally standing right there.”

7/10

And my billionaire fantasy offers me some empathy.

I imagine that if I got used to being allowed to transact w/ my inkjet dollars that I would be incredulous when I encountered people who refused.

They would literally be denying my unlimited wealth.

(Justifiably so.)

8/10

Thank you.

And I might say, “But it looks just like money! Why won’t you take it?”

I assume the answer would be, “A. It doesn’t, B. Its not real money.”

To which I might reply, “But other people treat it like real money!”

“Well, I won’t.”

You can imagine where it goes from there …

9/10

Unfortunately for gender ideologues, free societies don’t compel speech.

No one is obligated to lie about their perceptions.

And as growing numbers realize the real harm being done by validating these fantasies, they’ll be increasing unwilling to “affirm” them.

10/10

ETA re harm:

If increasing numbers of people started flooding our economy w/ inkjet bills, like I mentioned above, it would destabilize the monetary system to the detriment of society at-large.

The production of currency must be a closed system to function as intended.

Similarly, pretending that men can be women & granting them at-will, honor-system access the spaces, rights, protections, & opportunities of women destabilizes those systems to the detriment of society-at-large.

They are also closed systems which must remain so to function as intended.

Thing is they claim we're erasing transpeople. But I do accept their existence, as trans. I don't accept they have actually changed sex, because it's impossible. If I accepted that, that a tw was actually a woman, then surely that would have erased the existence of transpeople. It seems I'm erasing them in the wrong direction, by accepting them as a man who thinks he's a woman, or not erasing them enough, by not believing hard enough that he is a woman rather then trans.

That's a great analogy Britinme

That's all very well, Mavis, but there's really only one Night Shift for me: such a great song!

https://www.google.com/search?q=night+shift+commodores&sxsrf=AB5stBgq-_n4-CQtUUwi4Mtp0GgwICgtZw%3A1688464664305&ei=GO2jZKCmEpSkgQan1bH4Cg&gs_ssp=eJzj4tFP1zcsNM0yii9LLjRg9BLLy0zPKFEozshMK1FIzs_NzU_JL0otBgDvJQ05&oq=night+shift+comm&gs_lcp=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&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1fb8a5ac,vid:sQoJuJ99gws

That's an impressive link you've got they're @duc748 !

Haven't heard that song in years I've just had a quick full blast play so the neighbours could enjoy it as well!

It's a belter! 😀

That's a really good Twitter thread @Britinme!

It is not my job to prop up the existence of someone else's fiction on the grounds that they feel 'erased' if I will not provide this service. You cannot go around the world demanding that other people enact your fictions at will or you'll have an existential crisis: this needs mental health support.

It's not only not my job but I'm absolutely not bloody going to be getting involved when to do so actively harms my interests and those of others, on the grounds that those having existential crises are so very much more important than everyone else. They are no less important and no more important. I am not playing hierarchy games either.

I see that the "Transgender Participation in Sport For Under 18s" thread has been killed. Did anybody see anything odd with it?

I posted on it and don't want to repeat it, in case it was seen as offensive - I can't see how it would have.

Was that the thread started by someone who wanted participants in a study? If it was that might be why, I think there's a process and a special board for those requests. Has it been moved or zapped?