Would you ever consider a transman a man?

[Sidaway]

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

Honestly both sexes of trans are making themselves very niche in the dating market. I'd imagine most people would steer well clear for all sorts of reasons.

Most TW seem to go for lesbians, in my experience. Some TW go for "straight" men, but there are few that want a TW, and of course it calls into question their own sexuality.

TM often pair up with other TM, from what I see. Which is unsurprising.

No I wouldn’t ever consider a trans man a man and I wouldn’t have a romantic relationship with one either - I believe they don’t have a fully functioning penis even when transitioned?

I assume the ones sexually attracted to women would expect to find a female partner, but if both bought into gender ideology they would then describe themselves as a straight couple.

The ones sexually attracted to men consider themselves as gay men and apparently expect gay men to consider them as sexual partners. Not many gay men are going for this.

No. Transmen are not men. As a straight female, I have no sexual attraction to transmen. Even if they were "passing", I'd be unhappy if someone had tried to lie to me about such an intrinsic part of themselves. No functional relationship could then follow - because they are a woman and because they lied.

No. Playing 'pretend-sies' and being kind is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Really?

The average shoe size for a woman is a 6 and a 9 for men. The average height is 165 Vs 178cm.

You must surely admit that on average women are smaller than men.

I mean, on a day to day basis, if I see a small man I'm not thinking 'oh wait, on average women are smaller than men, so I must actually be looking at a woman'. I'd just think I was looking at a smaller than average man

I know this is a bit of a crude question, but who exactly is the target dating market for transmen?

Who is it they would like to attract as a partner?

The (3) TM that I know all have dated/are in relationships with women, and considered themselves lesbian before transitioning.

I feel the same.

No. Not a value judgment, just a straight up biological fact.

I know several young transmen who pass well at a glance if you don't have "transman" in your head, and a relative who transitioned in middle age, and only socially, and I'd have said that she "passed" as a clean cut, short and burly man but now I think of what previous posters have said, her skin absolutely gives it away.

What does 'live as men' mean. How does this effect anything bar the clothes they wear?

Can you explain the skin thing to me? I've googled Buck Angel, first time I heard of him, and I don't see what about his skin is meant to be a giveaway

@MenopausalMe
"I’m attracted to people who don’t conform to gender expectations, I find people who want to enforce them very offputting."

I agree completely.

No. You can't change sex.

Naw.

I’ve occasionally happened across a TM who looked quite attractive in a photo but I’m not interested in dating a man who doesn’t have a penis.

I’ve dated men between 5’9 and 6’7 in the past so I’m not a ‘6 foot and over only’ type (and I’m 5’11 with my best shoes on) but like @MrsTerryPratchett says, there is a layer of attraction that is just on the edge of consciousness, possibly pheromonal, and I just can’t imagine that happening with biological woman.

Besides, I like male proportions, so even the shortest men I’ve dated have had man hands, man hips, man thighs, etc. A bit of extra hair and/or muscle doesn’t change the underlying female body structure. I’m always struck by how short transmen’s arms seem compared to a man of the same height.

The few older transmen I’m familiar with seem quite aged compared to their same age male counterparts. I worry that the medical and surgical interventions are a risk for earlier onset osteoporosis and dementia etc. The data isn’t great but it seems like older transmen are especially prone to obesity too.

No, I’m heterosexual. Happy to use appropriate names and pronouns etc. socially but the chances of me being sexually or romantically attracted to a transman are slim to none.

Of the two transmen I know, one is in a LTR with a lesbian (was previously a butch lesbian before transitioning).

the other is much younger and says she is a gay man. Yes, it is confusing.

No. Its a woman pretending to be a man - which they can never biologically be - and I'm not sexually attracted to women.

Just to me I’d presume it means they pretend to be/try to be seen as men. So would introduce themselves with a male name, call the males ‘Mr’ whoever, wear clothes that make them look more masculine rather than traditionally feminine clothes etc.

No. I don't particularly care if they 'pass' or not (though I've seen none irl who do and perhaps one or two in the media who might at a push). They are not men, just as TW are not women. Quite apart from the fact that I wouldn't be attracted to them on a physical level, I also wouldn't want to date someone who believed in gender ideology and that people can change sex.

Call themselves - not the males.

Hell no

No

I don't think it sounds bad at all. I can't be around people who believe in delusions.

I view the myth that it's possible to change sex with the same level of disdain that I would apply to people who believe that the moon is made of cheese.

No - people are born either male or female. The most worrying point about this is the teenage girls who have been impacted by this trend. I feel that they have been manipulated by older adults with an agenda.