Would you ever consider a transman a man?

[Sidaway]

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

What a muddle. I suppose it does make sense that if you try to replace sex with gender identity you will think nobody is completely either "gender" and nobody has a fixed sexuality.

Any scientist looking at such a muddled picture would realise that there was a factor missing in their model. The factor here being of course... sex.

I’m not attacking trans people. I’m challenging homophobia when I see it.

Funny that it is absolutely certain that an individual is trans, and a guy, and gay, but categories and descriptions and orientations are meaningless if someone dared to think of them as what they are - a woman. But somehow it’s incredibly unexpected that two women might fall in love and have sex. Why is it unexpected, if categories are meaningless? Could it actually be that categories and words and physical realities are part of our lives, and that being female is an objective reality?

"My son is trans, and isn't attracted to women at all. He is therefore a gay trans guy, not a lesbian."

How utterly exhausting for you.
Mental gymnastics is always tiresome.

Some people are bisexual. Most are not. This is very simple to grasp. Do you understand how offensive it is to suggest that people who are straight, lesbian, or gay just dont actually know their own minds?

Attraction is about compatability, trust, charisma and shared interests.

oh don't be so ridiculous.

Loads of people shag each other without trusting them, identifying charisma, or have any shared interests, whatsoever!

Sexual orientation isn't 'charisma', or 'thank God we both bloody love backgammon'.

Good Lord.

Plus, as I have noted many times before, TRAs thoroughly enjoy using words like straight, gay and lesbian, without having any kind of definition for any of them.

Other than, what? Mutual charisma?? 😁

Pretty much all my life I have been intensely attracted to men whom I don’t trust, with whom I’m incompatible (other than sexually), with whom I share few or no interests and who have been largely charisma free.

It’s known as having bad taste in men. I’ve had my share of fun, though.

I suppose I should be flattered, but I've lost count of the number of times I've posted a reasonable, politely-worded question[s] to somebody like TransParentlyAnnoyed, like I did at 16.27, asking for some evidence and stats about all this alleged violence against trans people, plus pointing out that the hypervigilance she says trans people have is actually stirred up from within the trans movement, with their talk of 'genocide' and 'literal violence'.

And the poster leaves!

I posted at 16.27.
At I6.29 it was 'Bye Mumsnetters' from TPA, so there goes any chance of evidence about those violence against transfolk claims.

I'm sure it was a coincidence. I'll try not to take it personally

No

The idea that to challenge homophobia in the trans movement is to be homophobic towards the trans movement was a particularly fine piece of pretzel logic, wasn't it?😏

I've heard of a trend in some places of lesbians microdosing testosterone, with no intent to transition.

So may in fact gain some more male secondary sex effects.

It seems to me yo be part of the general body mod trend.

Other than, what? Mutual charisma?? 😁

Sexual attraction is all about charisma. And anyone who says they don't have charisma is lying. It follows that we should all be attracted to absolutely everyone, and choose sexual partners by selling raffle tickets in order to be scrupulously fair and open minded.

That made me laugh! Reminded me of "Patience" and Mr Bunthorne.

Would you ever consider a transman a man?

No, though I might at first mistake her for a man if she ’passed’ exceptionally well.

We're not interested in hearing about a person's Transhausen by proxy.

Schizophrenia exists. Bi-polar exists. Anorexia exists. It doesn't mean we promote mental illness as valid.

Your homophobia is very disturbing. But that is what trans is, homophobic at it's very nucleus.

Firstly, why are you trying to
shame pp for looking at public photographs like advertising billboards? That’s a very odd response.

Secondly, if your ‘identity’ relies on affirmation by others, it is always going to fail because other people have freedom of thought and perception (for now).

Have you considered that it’s the chosen remedy that is wrong and that’s why the mental health problems continue? The studies are showing that m/h gets WORSE after a medical ‘transition’. This is most likely because surgery, medication and a self proclaimed identity will not fix a mental health problem like gender dysphoria.

Why not explore other treatments? It’s been shown that the children who grow up to be the most settled in their bodies are the children who are not labelled as ‘trans’. That should be a starting point.

Controlling sources of information is yet another requirement enforced on people by trans activists. If they can imply some sort of nefarious intent on the part of others there's some sort of extra excitement 🙄

I consider myself straight but some women I look at and fancy but if I think about doing anything sexual with them it's an immediate turn-off - I feel the same about transmen - some are good looking but I know they have a vulva and that just isn't attractive to me. An over-enlarged clitoris from testosterone use or a pseudopenis made from arm tissue is even more of a turn-off.

I don’t consider Transmen to be men because they’re not. What has occurred to me, and I’m sure is obvious to many, is the reason they often go for the beardy, tattooed, pierced look is because it’s difficult to imply maleness by clothing. Therefore the reductive tropes of maleness (as above) are the go-to and is rather insulting to men (poor lambs).
The other thing I’ve been thinking about is, when considering the outcome of surgery such as mastectomies, neo vaginas and penises, anyone who has had surgery knows that the surgery site is numb afterwards and often for a very long time after. So all the fake big tits, neo cocks and internal tubes are likely to be quite dead and unresponsive.

I have worked with over a hundred children and their families who believed that ‘being transgender’ provided ‘the’ explanation for high levels of distress and poor mental the health the child was experiencing.

When the new name and pronouns didn’t cut it, the belief that all would be well once puberty was blocked and cross hormones administered often kicked in. When this wasn’t the magic bullet, the lack of acceptance from others was often blamed. It was unusual for parents to say ‘hold on a moment, this was all meant to be sorted by transition’.

Many parents are between a rock and a hard place. Firstly, the magic bullet of ‘transitioning’ is enticing - the thought of all the distress and turmoil just disappearing delivers the hope that their child will be happy and well adjusted again, and soon. Then, when they see that social transitioning and/ or hormones aren’t removing the distress, they can either (I) blame everyone else (lack of acceptance) (ii) accept the cause of the distress was not ‘being born in the wrong body’, and go back to the drawing board to find the real underlying causes for the distress. However, if they do this, this reveals to their child that they don’t actually believe they are the opposite sex, and this is often inconceivable to them.

I think many parents feel completely trapped by the situation - whether they acknowledge this or not. It’s a travesty that they are not able to access psychological services to help them navigate this. It is absolutely possible for parents and children to express different views/ beliefs and for alternative explanation for distress to be safely explored. It’s a travesty that families aren’t educated, prior to ‘transition’ that not everyone will perceive or accept the new identity and that’s something that the transitioned child needs to be able to tolerate - and if they can’t, this should be worked on prior to transition. Of course, this takes away the ‘magic bullet’ answer that they so desperately want to escape in to - so as long as they think transition will bring happiness, it may be difficult to engage them in other approaches which don’t offer miracle solutions.

"Third...what on earth are you doing examining photos of strangers?! Being thiat obsessed with a tiny minority is deeply unhealthy behaviour."

You mean the photos of people in promotional material about normalising elective double mastectomy scars from extreme body modifications to fit a person's body to their personal identity, including billboards?

I didn't realise we were not supposed to notice those images. You had better speak to the trans support groups who sponsored them or supported the promotion of those pictures.

Or was this just an attempt to shame people pointing out the harms of those very campaigns.

An edit.

Many women are denied care for many and various ills that derive from having a female body in a world full of men, (including some caused by some men's expectations), which causes intense distress

all women live with prejudice, (particularly that coming from genderists), harassment (ditto) and the constant threat of extreme violence (most of it sexual) which results in exhausting hypervigilance and intense misery. (Doesn't stop them being women though, nothing can)

self-harm is sadly very common as there is almost no MH care for abuse- something girls suffer just as much as 'trans' people.

I would add to that that becoming a 'transman' is a form of self-harm, just as much as the traditional cutting, anorexia and bulimia.

All ways of punishing ones female body for being female, some more fashionable than others.

Don't expect me to admire or endorse a metal illness that leads its sufferers into self-harm.