Would you ever consider a transman a man?

[Sidaway]

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

No

Buck might pass in pictures online but they are the size of a woman (in fact exactly the same height as me) with appropriately sized hands, feet etc.

I know quite a lot of nb and trans-identified females and even with facial hair, deep voices, etc. they are obviously not men in person.

Also no penis. Pretty key criteria for a straight woman I’d say.

For a relationship, I mean.

I think trans men pass more easily - facial hair tends to make it more believable in a 'just into adolescence' way but ultimately they would not be able to have a relationship with a heterosexual woman as a man and I doubt they would be accepted by most male groups easily

God what a terrible evil lie we have told these girls. I weep when I see a local girl I know who is the same age as my DS (20) who looks like a 14 year old boy now, and that is going to be it for life. For life. Looking like a 14 year old boy - about 5ft 4 and no sexual function now or ever.

Definitely better at passing than TW! There are lots of smaller, narrow men with soft skin around, far more than there are tall women with a big jaw and an adams apple.

I've met transmen who could almost pass as men, and seen a couple that really do pass (with clothes on). I've never once met or got close to a TW who wasn't obviously a male. Never.

No. Humans cannot change sex.

I have to say I'm honestly scoobied by the people on here saying transmen pass better than transwomen. They really, really don't.

To you. I'm a woman who is 6ft tall with large hands and even larger (size 10) feet. Where are all these tall men that people on here are saying differ so vastly to TM? Trust me, from up where I'm standing, the majority of men are smaller than me. Yes, not just shorter. Smaller.

I once saw a photo of someone's boyfriend and I thought he was a TM...he wasn't, just had a very effeminate face (and over plucked eyebrows). He was incredibly unattractive to me for the way that he presented, but he did it for her 💁🏽‍♀️

The only TW I can think of that I was shocked was not a TW is Indya Moore (photo attached)

Can't share photos of the TM I think pass as they're known to me IRL

I think this is the thing to me. I guess I don't spend enough time staring at hip to shoulder ratio or whatever it is, I give a quick glance and go about my day.

Sorry I meant shocked that she WAS a TW, not wasn't.

As a bi woman I like masculine men and androgynous men, I like feminine, androgynous and butch women. I’m fine with a certain level of body modification and still find someone attractive but I’ve found all the TW I’ve encountered so far creepy in how they’ve dealt with me - either aggressive with me for not fitting into the ‘box’ they want to put women into or too obviously interested in me and trying to get me to act ‘girly’ with them and I haven’t encountered any TM (encountered lots of TW) but can’t imagine I’d find that level of denial of being a woman attractive.

I’m attracted to people who don’t conform to gender expectations, I find people who want to enforce them very offputting.

Buck might pass in pictures online but they are the size of a woman (in fact exactly the same height as me) with appropriately sized hands, feet etc

I don't get this. What is the size of a woman? What are appropriate sized feet and hands? My husband and I are both 5ft 8, we wear the same shoe size, share jumpers and jackets. I'm heavier than him.
He's very obviously a man and I'm obviously a woman, but our size has nothing at all to do with that.

No because they were born female and therefore no matter what they do they will always be a female.

Men have a larger variation in height - so there are men who are 5'2 but there are very few women who are 6'4

Women have more body fat than men

Men have more upper body muscle and strength

You do know this....I don't understand why it is controversial

Really?

The average shoe size for a woman is a 6 and a 9 for men. The average height is 165 Vs 178cm.

You must surely admit that on average women are smaller than men.

No. As a heterosexual woman, I would not include them in my dating pool either.

It's usually easiest to tell a large woman from a small man from the way the pelvis operates and the arm length rather than absolute height for example

I know a couple of TM and they definitely pass even on quite close inspection. But they have full beards, which goes quite a long way in making them look ' authentic'. They definitely don't have soft, dainty skin.

The idea that there aren't short, slightly effeminate men out there is ridiculous. 'Men's' clothes make it easier to disguise differences in bodies too, which might be a factor, whereas a lot of TW wear stereotypically ' female' clothes which highlights their lack of hips/waist/boobs etc.

As to would I date a TM. Absolutely not, as I'm a straight woman.

Oh and no
They aren't men they are transmen ie female
However since they never infringe on me it's a much less important question than the other

I know this is a bit of a crude question, but who exactly is the target dating market for transmen?

Who is it they would like to attract as a partner?

No. You cannot change biological sex. And I wouldn't consider a relationship with one, as I'm straight. if I did, I wouldn't consider myself straight as they are women.

Transmen certainly have the capacity to "pass" more than transwomen do. The human body does respond to testosterone by growing facial hair and deepening the voice so a woman who has taken artificial testosterone can be difficult to "spot" whereas a transwoman will generally not pass that well.

In some situations where women need single-sex spaces because they are vulnerable, e.g. changing-rooms, hospitals and prisons, a transman may trigger the adrenaline-response internal alarm bells of the other women there, causing them to feel unsafe, because of this successful mimicing of masculine traits. Therefore although they are women, it's not really always going to be appropriate for them to share such spaces with other women, and they should have a separate "third space" (not be put in with men, for their own safety).

I am bisexual and I would certainly consider a transman as a sexual partner - I think it might be a really successful pairing for me because I am quite attracted to masculine physique but actually get more enjoyment in FF sex than MF. However, I am really not attracted to the kind of self-absorbed narcisism of someone who required me to believe in "gender identity" as a real rather than imaginary thing. I wouldn't be believing them if they asserted them selves to be "actually a man" and for some transmen that might be a dealbreaker that they wouldn't want to be in a relationship with me. But if they were more relaxed and respectful of my right to mental integrity and not being gaslit then it could work.

I wouldn’t date a trans person. I know it sounds bad but I would very carefully consider the idea of dating anyone with any type of personality issue or mental health struggles. That’s not me saying those people don’t deserve love or anything, more that I cannot really commit to being a carer/emotional support frame for somebody. I always remember seeing Dylan Mulvaney saying how he would consider dating a woman but he would need to be the one to walk down the aisle last and have the most attention on them and be prioritised. I felt like that was very indicative of what a relationship with a person like that would be like.

Yes really. People are not averages. You said that this individual (I don't know of them) is obviously a not a man as they are the size of a woman. Women come in all shapes and sizes, as do men.

You can't say they are the size of a woman, that size does not exist. I'm taller than most of the men I know (I seem to know a lot of small men, and my home country men are smaller than the UK). I'm still obviously a woman. My DH and the men I know smaller than him are still obviously men.

I don't doubt you that the person you spoke about is clearly a woman, but your point didn't make any sense at all, on an individual basis.

Would you ever consider a transman a man?

No.