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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Transmen

281 replies

Questioningfolke · 05/04/2023 09:58

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Clymene · 05/04/2023 09:58

This thread has been done to death on here. Have a search.

Ingenieur · 05/04/2023 10:11

Clymene · 05/04/2023 09:58

This thread has been done to death on here. Have a search.

Truly it has.

To save the OP some time, as transmen by definition are natal women they would be welcome in the women's loos. If transmen feel more validated usung the men's loos then good good for them.

But ultimately this isn't a problem created by women, it's not our problem to solve.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 05/04/2023 10:16

Lots of trans men do not pass as men to women and men don't care as they are not a threat to them.

unclebuck · 05/04/2023 10:21

TM are female so fine to use the women's toilets. They are not part of the class of people that carries out the majority of sexual assaults. HTH

donquixotedelamancha · 05/04/2023 10:25

Clymene · 05/04/2023 09:58

This thread has been done to death on here. Have a search.

This.

Briefly: If a post-op trans man passes the debate is completely moot because no-one will challenge him in the men's loos.

The public policy challenge is about people who present as their sex but 'identify' as the opposite.

For very good reasons toilets are single sex and most people want it that way. If you want mixed sex @Questioningfolke it's up to you to convince people.

SmartHome · 05/04/2023 10:25

I know several trans men and in all cases, it's completely obvious to me, mainly from their height and frame size, that they are female. I wouldn't bat an eyelid about them being in the female toilets, same as if a butch lesbian was in there. Its the fetishistic men that loom over me and are taking weird selfies in the mirror that I object to.

FourTeaFallOut · 05/04/2023 10:30

Some transmen do a convincing approximation of looking male with some facial features. But they don't become tall, they don't grow man hands and feet, their gait doesn't change, their shoulders don't grow broader. Real life dissolves the illusion. Women can spot men a mile away.

elgreco · 05/04/2023 10:50

Transmen rarely pass, tis nearly always the shortarses that decide to identify as men and the big burly fellas who decide to identify as women.

sashagabadon · 05/04/2023 10:54

I think it’s up to the trans men. If they really go pass then of course they should use the men’s ( and if men object that’s for them to debate and decide between the two groups) and many trans men are young teens / twenties and still look female and so of course are welcome in the female loos.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 05/04/2023 10:56

Imagine if trans allies had put their time and effort into third spaces which people could use irrespective of how they identify leaving single sex spaces for those who want them. How many of these discussions would then be focused on the small minority who are determined to undermine boundaries rather than the majority who probably just want to get on with their lives in peace.

Happylittlechicken · 05/04/2023 10:59

Clymene · 05/04/2023 09:58

This thread has been done to death on here. Have a search.

Ooh another one. Ok then. Would you put a biological female in male general pop prison? If not, why not? If males with a trans identity are “unsafe” in male spaces, why would you put someone like Elliott page in there? We’ve done this so many times.

PermanentTemporary · 05/04/2023 11:01

Op why not name the thread 'toilets' rather than 'transmen'?

Do you think a transman post hysterectomy should be denied access to the gynaecology ward? How would you, as the Sister of the ward, deal with the situation to maximise the comfort and recovery of all your patients?

Florissante · 05/04/2023 11:08

"Passing" is irrelevant. Sex is.

BigFrau · 05/04/2023 11:13

Many of these responses are not really addressing what the OP is asking though.

OP is saying that if masculine-looking females (transmen) are welcome in the women's toilets (obviously they are, because they're women) what's to stop biological men pretending to be transmen to enter women's spaces too.

It's not really about transmen being in the womens' toilets. The thread title is a bit misleading.

Rainbowshit · 05/04/2023 11:15

Yawn.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 05/04/2023 11:16

To using transmen as an gotcha to allow a subset of men into female spaces.

Happylittlechicken · 05/04/2023 11:16

Because 99.9% of people can tell the sex of someone immediately, and if spaces are designated female only, any man can be asked to leave. Most transmen do not pass as males. A very few do, in pictures, but walking, talking, hand and foot size, lack of Adam’s apple, skull shape…. Huge clues. And no genital inspection needed.

BigFrau · 05/04/2023 11:18

But the question is do some males pass as transmen?

nilsmousehammer · 05/04/2023 11:18

Oh not this again.

"Men will force their way into your spaces and exclude and harm you whatever you do so you might as well stop fussing about men with TQ+ identities domineering and excluding and causing harm to women".

a) Normal men are not gits devoid of the capacity to care about women
b) TM are usually one HELL of a lot more sensitive to other females
c) Go and campaign for third spaces and take your problems with respect for females and female equality somewhere else.

Happylittlechicken · 05/04/2023 11:19

BigFrau · 05/04/2023 11:18

But the question is do some males pass as transmen?

See above. HTH.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 05/04/2023 11:23

SmartHome · 05/04/2023 10:25

I know several trans men and in all cases, it's completely obvious to me, mainly from their height and frame size, that they are female. I wouldn't bat an eyelid about them being in the female toilets, same as if a butch lesbian was in there. Its the fetishistic men that loom over me and are taking weird selfies in the mirror that I object to.

I agree.

Here’s a few pictures of transmen standing beside transwomen to illustrate that transition does not change neatly as much as a carefully posed selfie claims.

(all people pictured are famous for being trans so I’m not outing anyone MNHQ!)

Transmen
Transmen
Transmen
Transmen
FourTeaFallOut · 05/04/2023 11:25

🤔 🤔🤔🤔

How could we ever tell?

EmotionalSupportHyena · 05/04/2023 11:33

BigFrau · 05/04/2023 11:18

But the question is do some males pass as transmen?

No.

A small percentage of men are woman-sized in overall height but their proportions are all wrong (male skulls are bigger, arms and legs are longer).

Gait is the biggest indicator.

(see the point light biological motion experiments for examples as to how little info we need to tell a person’s sex when they are in motion)

Transmen
Palmfrond · 05/04/2023 11:34

I haven’t read all the replies, so apologies if I’m repeating someone else but the facts are:

  1. nobody gives a shit who uses the men’s loos.
  2. Allowing men to use women’s spaces is unfair and a green flag to potential predators.
  3. trans men using women’s loos will have to explain themselves if challenged. It’s hardly the end of the world, and would hardly come as a surprise to them, really, would it?
EmotionalSupportHyena · 05/04/2023 11:43

FourTeaFallOut · 05/04/2023 11:25

🤔 🤔🤔🤔

How could we ever tell?

When I was flicking through event pics I found this of Elliot Page at The Met Gala with Josh O’Connor (the actor who plays the young Prince Charles in season 3 and 4 of The Crown).

Picture with Olivia Coleman for comparison.

I reckon I could deffo take Page in a fight, might struggle with Coleman but would definitely lose to O’Connor.

Transmen
Transmen