Transmen

[Questioningfolke]

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

"And my question really is about the risk of men pretending to be transmen. Surely that's higher risk than men pretending to be transwomen?"

I don't see why. A man pretending to be a female person is never going to be as convincing as a man pretending to be a male person. And now there is no longer any requirement for a man to adjust his appearance to claim trans status there is no need for all the accoutrements of fake womanhood. Also if a female person has altered themselves to such a degree that they genuinely "pass" as a man they are highly unlikely to use the ladies anyway aren't they?

If the law is changed, it will give us the right to challenge and exclude individuals from single sex spaces.
It will back up those institutions that want to enforce and provide single sex provision but feel they can’t at the moment, it has huge ramifications
We won’t need toilet guards, because we all know that Transwomen and trans men are law abiding and under no circumstances would try and sneak into spaces allocated for those of the opposite biological sex.

I doubt a law change is going to make the slightest difference to which loo a "passing" TM will chose to use. Why would it?

The only men I can think of who might be more like transmen would be some East Asian youths, or jockeys, as they might be smaller, and also young Asian men appear less hairy. But even then their shoulder to hip proportions, ways of standing, skin texture, Adam’s apple etc would probably make them seem like men to me.

“Signalbox · Today 18:06”
"And my question really is about the risk of men pretending to be transmen. Surely that's higher risk than men pretending to be transwomen?"

“I don't see why. A man pretending to be a female person is never going to be as convincing as a man pretending to be a male person”

This has made me laugh Signalbox
I had never even thought of a man being disguised as a transman as more of a threat than a man!

I think transmen have ended up in a bit of a grey area (much like with sports).
On the one hand there's the argument that men deserve their privacy and dignity to be respected as much as women and shouldn't have to share with biological women.

On the other hand some transmen do pass -it's unrealistic to think otherwise - and some who may not pass in the cold light of day to a well-informed GC feminist, might do a creditable enough job when glimpsed, unexpectedly in a dimly lit toilet. Buck Angel has said he doesn't use women's toilets as he recognises his appearance is sufficiently male to make it inappropriate/alarming for women. I've never seen Buck in real life, but the bald head, bushy beard, heavily muscled arms and torso look fairly convincing onscreen.

I don't think there's an easy answer, but none of this has any bearing on the importance of keeping transwomen out of women's toilets.

It always strikes me as a weird threat "well if you don't allow men pretending to be women into your space you are going to end up with men pretending to be women pretending to be men". In either scenario you're stuck with men pretending to be of the female sex 🙃

I don't think there's an easy answer, but none of this has any bearing on the importance of keeping transwomen out of women's toilets.

Personally I think it's more important to preserve women's spaces. I know men should be entitled to their own spaces but frankly I think they matter less than women in this instance. In many places they are already making women's toilets "all gender" whilst men get to keep their facilities for men only. I think they should reverse this and turn men's facilities into "all gender" facilities whilst maintaining the women's as single-sex. That way men and all the other 100 genders and people who "just want to pee" can share a space.

Well I’d love to protect women’s spaces.
However I agree with the OP.

Many MNtters are convinced they would always be able to spot a transman. I don’t think that’s true.
And then of course, you still have a very man looking person in the toilet with no proof as to whether they are biologically a man or a woman….

For me, this ‘we need to stick to sex and only sex regardless of what the person looks like’ is just as frightening as saying transwomen can access women spaces.

That I agree.
Men = all sex and women are inly women spaces would work for me.

It’s not going to happen though because all the inconvenience will be the men’s shoulders. They won’t accept it.

If transgenderists aren't going to pay attention to this law change then what is the point?

Who cares, men arent frightened of women, women dont rape men in toilets. Non issue.

I can't argue with that!

I've had 'Mummy, what's that?' I was a 17 year old girl with a buzz cut. Poor woman was mortified 😄.

Because it will clarify the law and make it easier for service providers to offer single- sex services. I think this will be important for many female only services or sport associations but probably won’t affect who uses which loo. There is no practical way to police loo use. Personally I think it’s a lost cause.

But at least the law would be on our side.

Well, your side, given the UK is so far ahead in this discussion.

I disagree it's a lost cause. MOST people are law abiding and follow social conventions.

Have clear rules and MOST people will follow them.

Yes, some bad actors will take the piss but clear rules empower people to object.

Yes, some trans people pass and will use opposite sex toilets without anyone knowing, but they are fewer in number than the TRAs claim, and their existence doesn't mean that we just ditch rules and make everything functionally unisex.

I had a (white) male friend who was 5ft 5 with a small build, probably similar size to Elliott Page? Clean shaven he looked 14 at 21. Still looked unmistakably male.

For me, this ‘we need to stick to sex and only sex regardless of what the person looks like’ is just as frightening as saying transwomen can access women spaces.

Really? Have you completely forgotten the humans are a sexually dimorphic species?

FWIW I think Laverne Cox is a beautiful looking human, but I would much rather arm wrestle Chase Strangio.

Have there been any confirmed cases of this happening?

I hope you are right!

But whilst I agree that most people follow social convention I think this particular social convention is coming under a significant attack and I'm not sure it will stand in the long term.

Also, I don't think we should ditch the rules but I think they are being eroded at a worryingly fast rate. I was at the South Bank Centre the other day and what used to be the ladies was now an "all gender" inclusive toilet and the men's was still the men's. I found someone to ask where the ladies was and they directed me down into the basement which was down some really steep steps and then eerily quiet, presumably because nobody knew it was there. So third spaces are provided but women are relegated to the basement.

Lots of transmen 'pass' as men,

But actually thinking about it there is more to it than people following social convention. People follow social convention when they think it is the right thing to do. With trans activism we have a group of people who have convinced themselves that by being denied access to the toilet of their choice society is treating them unjustly. So the rules can be as clear as you like but if enough people feel that the rules are unjust then it will be much harder to maintain them. You frequently see people comparing keeping TW out of female spaces to segregation or apartheid so I think in flouting this social convention they think they are like Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus. This is why I think it is a lost cause.

Exactly. Which is why we have to push back HARD on the elision of sex into gender (toilets are single sex spaces, not single gender).

On unclear language in legislation (the EQ10 language around single sex exemptions and accompanying guidance has had a chilling effect due to "Stonewall Law", lobbying, and fear of litigation.

On "No Debate" which allows nonsense like the original GRA which coined the concept of "legal sex" to pass without much notice, ditto legislation in Ireland and elsewhere, and they had a damned good try in Scotland and may still succeed.

Plain language, sunlight, when we say no we mean no. It's not inevitable.