Transmen

[Questioningfolke]

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

Sigh. If they pass they will use the men’s loos. Same for transwomen, the few that pass will use the ladies. You know this, we know this. So stop with the wide eyed whataboutery, it’s crap and you know it.

Anyway, no one would ever pretend to be trans to get in women’s spaces remember?

Why are women saying it is an issue then if it isn't an issue?

I suffer id demands at least once a week. I'm 5 foot nothing, weigh less than 8 stone and am a 28AA on a good day. That combined with a bunch of stupid freckles over my nose and cheeks make me look, at first glance, about 12 years old. It's the way it is. I accept that I will be asked for proof of age, despite being 37 years old and a mother. Why can't manly women accept the same? You get to challenge me every time I try to buy a drink. I get to challenge you if you don't look right in my space.

Life is a bridge, get over it and stop throwing a load of whataboutery to confuse a non-problem.

Yes, you can often tell by the hands and feet - just having big hands and big feet doesn’t mean you’re a man, though?!?!?!

You can tell a man’s hands from a woman’s hands; a man’s feet from a woman’s feet - size is not the only determiner. You realise that. Right…..? 🫤

What ID do they produce? Most things will just have a name on won't they and that doesn't prove anything, I was named after my father but I am a woman.

I wasn't the person claiming you can tell from the size of hands and feet, I read that on here. Maybe explain that to the people who think it is true.

@JanesLittleGirl I agree, being harassed about your age when simply trying to buy a drink must be absolutely soul crushing. Your strength, resilience and tenacity in the face of such treatment is testament to your brave character. Rosa Parks herself would not be worthy of your woolly socks.

Why are women saying it is an issue then if it isn't an issue?

Sophistry.

No-one here has ever actually tried to claim they've personally experienced it, note - it's all about some hypothetical imaginary women who for some reason people can't tell is a woman.

(I think she probably lives somewhere near the mythical harmless passing transwoman tax accountant in prison for a white collar crime, who has yet to be discovered, used in other debates.)

Closest I've ever seen reported in this scenario is someone being challenged and the challenger being reassured by a clearly female voice. The only reports of "women" being thrown out I've ever seen were men.

When I had a shaved head and wore a suit, a bunch of drunken men once asked me “Are you sure you’re going in the right toilet, love?” on my way into the women’s toilets. Does that count?

I feel a lot sorrier for the women who cannot access women's toilets at all because men insist on barging in there regardless of impact.

The answer to both issues is for men to stay out of female only spaces.

You can tell a man’s hands from a woman’s hands; a man’s feet from a woman’s feet - size is not the only determiner. You realise that. Right…..?

I know lots of women, myself included, with large feet and fairly large hands. They are still feminine looking hands. It's blatantly obvious.

My driver's license with my photo, name, DOB and sex seems to work. I would find it hard to believe that any girl too young to have a license is going to have their sex queried.

I am now completely pissed off with the suggestion that there are huge numbers of women that look like men who would be denied access to women's loos were it not for the heroic efforts made on their behalf by brave transwomen.

I've been questioned in women's loos for years! Well before these debates were mainstream about trans people.

I also get ID'd all the time because incidentally I also look about 12, a 12 year old boy on a bad day! I am a 34 year old woman with a child!

Getting ID'd is fine, I actually had to show ID for Calpol not long ago. Which was quite funny.

Being questioned about gender in a public space is fine when kids do it it, I just say oh I have short hair and they're fine. Also kids are kids and question they don't tend to accuse.

Adults will often start off more aggressive (verbally not physically) or lots of uncomfortable stares, sometimes I've had it where people don't believe me even after I've spoken! I don't have a deep voice. Fairly tall but I'd say extremely regular hands although never seen anyone look at my hands they stare at my face and my hair!

It's deeply uncomfortable being stared at or questioned in changing rooms/toilets because I don't want people to think I'm some pervy guy in the wrong place and my own issues play a part in questioning by strangers and confrontation being a problem.

It doesn't sound that bad on the face of it but knowing that in any public space I could be challenged and confronting is tiring and unpleasant.

None of this is to say that women should 'roll over and accept men in women's spaces' it's more just to raise the point that identifying people by the way they look isn't as easy as you say.

As mentioned, the solution is a third space or just individual cubicles. A third space everyone can access but also respects the single sex spaces and the assumption is only bio women are in the women's space. The relief I feel when there's individual cubicles/gender neutral means I won't have to encounter an awkward conversation or challenge for the whoever knows how many times when just trying to have a wee!

Others need single sex spaces - so these should also be protected. I'm not in disagreement with that, but just have a different perspective of someone who is often challenged.

Are you an expert? I haven't made a study of hands myself so I couldn't categorically say either way.

So now we have two categories of biological women, ones who fit the template for female and the others who don't matter.

Has anyone said their are huge numbers of women who are being denied access to women's loos. Why make things up?

As to your driving licence, would a transwoman be able to get a license that states she's a woman? I thought they could. I don't think you can change the age so you are safe on that one.

Are you an expert?

No I'm a normal person whose a lot mens' and womens' hands. I'm surprised you think one needs an expert!

Presumably if there biological women who get mistaken for men today, this has always been the case.

Why is it suddenly an access problem now? Why do people only now suddenly believe single sex provisions are unworkable when they have existed and worked for decades without comment?

Is it because the actions of entitled men (original sex-based meaning) have broken the social contract that female spaces are female only, so the default assumption is no longer that people in female spaces are female, but that people might be entitled men ignoring female boundaries, wants and needs?

And if that is the reason, why is the solution to throw our hands up and reward the entitled and misogynistic behaviour of men by giving up on single sex spaces despite their clear benefits in supporting women's equal and safe participation in society?

I’m confused. Which biological women don’t “meet the template for female”?

So now we have two categories of biological women, ones who fit the template for female and the others who don't matter.

What? Every single biological woman fits the template for female!! It's in her chromosomes and cannot be changed.

You what?

I have no idea now what you're talking about or how it bears any resemblance to what I said?

I'm out. You're just going to bang on endlessly about your fixed, stuck idea about some kind of female categorisation regardless of what anyone else says or what the issues are.

There's an underlying assumption that questioning someone who is gender bending is based on doubt.
This assumption is false.
When a person is clocked as trans, there is no doubt of their sex.
You may reject feedback on your passability which I think is leading to the multiple suggestions of genital inspections and other tomfoolery.

if you need me to prove how i know your sex, just realise that either all the people who say you pass are lying or you've relied too hard on filters.

Does anyone actually have experience of a trans woman physically preventing them from using the toilet?

The possibility of finding men in women’s single sex spaces would stop me from using them.