Transmen

[Questioningfolke]

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

Isn't that because big tall women who transition and small men who transition pass and you don't realise they are trans.

Transition doesn’t change skull size, arm length to height ratio or gait (and gait is the biggest indicator) so no, not really.

Probably won’t stand out enough to be instantly clockable in a big crowd the way a 4’11 transman and 6’7 transwoman do, but on a standing-beside-you-at-the-sink-looking-into-the-same-mirror? Definitely.

My dog can tell a human male from a human female without knowing shit about gendered accoutrements like make up and heels 🤷‍♀️

I like the gender neutral loos at the southbank! Even as a woman it makes me more comfortable because of the way I look. It can be pretty confusing though to ever find any loo there

I’ve no objection to them setting up a 3rd space for people who prefer a mixed-sex facility but why would you not then locate that facility in the basement instead of relocating the women’s toilets there? Women who are unable to use stairs are now forced to share facilities with men.

Which is an argument the point of which is to try and make bloody women shut up and accept that if they are going to have men in their facilities whether or not it entirely fucks up their access, they might as well have men who are dressed as women.

No.

Men do not have to be arses. It's not part of the biology.

And frankly TM tend to be a whole lot more aware and sympathetic to the needs of other females, and a smile and explanation would deal with most women anxious about 'am I in an enclosed space with a biological male, which means I have to leave?' But if you as a female choose to change your appearance to the point it may cause other women distress, concern and exclude them from women's spaces? It's kind of on you to either reassure them or campaign for alternative spaces as you would prefer.

This is about men of all identities coping with the idea that female humans have needs too, and need accessible spaces. And bloody having the decency to stop believing that women's privacy and dignity is something in the gift of men to play with and withhold as they feel like it.

Quite right, height is literally the only thing that differentiates between men and women. That and high heels. I'm regularly confused when I meet short men. I'm still not sure whether Tom Cruise is male or female.

Presumably then there will be cases of people who have met a truly passing trans person and only later learned they were trans, much to their surprise. Anyone here ever experienced this?

I know several trans men and in all cases, it's completely obvious to me, mainly from their height and frame size, that they are female.

I agree. It's generally very obvious!

These biological women are very welcome to use women's spaces.

Ben Shapiro is pretty tiny and the enormous Zoey Tur didn’t seem to struggle to recognise Shapiro as a fellow male when Tur threatened to ‘send [him] home in an ambulance’ on a TV panel show 🤷‍♀️

More on Tur (Tur’s daughter published a memoir last year) https://nypost.com/2022/06/13/katy-tur-discusses-estranged-father-becoming-transgender/amp/

A third space is an oppositional position to the assertion that trans women ARE women

But they're obviously not women!!!

No but I do know that if you stir a puddle with a stick you will muddy the water.

And the changed law would make it possible for the GC public, including men, enforce those laws ( I don’t mean by physical violence, but by verbal and non verbal questioning and expressing of disapproval).

I don't understand how everyone on here is so sure they can correctly identify whether everybody they've ever met is a man or a woman, unless they've checked with them.
Posting photos of people who've said they are trans men or trans women hardly counts as you already know. But apparently they always know 🙄

Presumably then there will be cases of people who have met a truly passing trans person and only later learned they were trans, much to their surprise.

Ah yes. Known as the unicorn accountant argument.

This was the one that rather damaged Sturgeon's career. One should not say no to male people in female prisons because one might be a fully surgically transitioned, sweet, gentle, perfectly appropriate accountant serving time for fraud. As opposed to Isla Bryson, with an obvious erection behind the leggings, serving time for rape (and sexually exploiting women while awaiting trial by using Bryson's access and excuse to compel women to co operate.)

It was later found as people identified the male prisoners in the women's estates and their crimes, that this unicorn accountant prisoner didn't exist. Rumour has it you can sometimes see him flit by in the mist of the highlands on brightly moonlit nights, hand in hand with Nessie.

Would you like us to start taking photos of random trans people we see out and about and start an online Catalogue of Clocking? Surely not! That would be targeted harassment, wouldn’t it? So we’ll have to keep using trans celebs as examples of obvious sexual dimorphism, because anything else would be morally objectionable.

Yes, I think this has happened lots times to lots of people.

I've seen conversations on here about people who find out their date is trans on the third date and then have an issue with it. I'm not trying to start a debate on this specific issue, but it proves that there are many, many trans people who pass. As the pp said, you just wouldn't be able to spot a trans person who isn't obviously trans, which warps people's perceptions of what a trans person 'looks like'.

The argument 'well, you can always tell if a trans man was born a woman so he can use the women's restroom' just isn't a good one. So many trans men look like...well, men.

I think this is an important contradiction to raise which has never been answered well by this forum IMO.

Passing transmen can use the male toilets. It's not up to me who goes in there and if men don't like it then it's their problem to solve.

I can also do nothing about passing transwomen in the women's toilet and to be honest, I don't spend any time worrying about it.

I do want the right to challenge a man in the women's toilet and for women's toilets to remain single sex spaces. This has been the social norm since there were such spaces so no, I don't think it's complicated nor too much to ask.

(I've never seen a thread on here about someone finding out that their date was trans. Ever. Must have missed them.)

The 'passing' argument is used to shut up women who need single sex spaces for equality of access.

The issue is that many women need single sex spaces for equality of access.

The whole 'many pass so you'd never know' justifies the very obviously not passing male people with swords wanking in cubicles. That is the aim of it. Because obviously no one is going to stand on the door and decide who passes and who doesn't, and because this would be fantastically unkind anyway. So the answer has to be no one born male should enter a specifically single sex female space to meet their own needs, thereby excluding females from any facility at all .

The whole 'what about transmen' thing is an attempt to try yet again to wangle away women's right to ask for accessible spaces for those of them who need it.

It is not up to women to solve the problems of everyone else: everyone else needs to take some responsibility for how we ensure women do not lose access to anything at all in the desire to give male people (and those who prefer to present as male people) a wider range of more affirming and comfortable choices.

This person was a flat racing jockey in their professional life. So,,pretty short and capable of doing eight stone. I saw them at Warwick, when they were participating in a Charity Race ( against the rules, it was supposed to be for amateurs, and once you have handed in your professional licence you are always considered to be a pro - but, hey, trans person , no rules apply!) .

as PP have said, you can’t hide the shoulders, the stance ( or the bum tbh).

"I've never seen a thread on here about someone finding out that their date was trans. Ever. Must have missed them.)"

I do remember one, fairly recently, where the poster had matched with someone on an online dating site and been messaging the match, only to be told, after arranging to meet in person but before actually meeting, that the match was trans.

Which is very much the point. The trans person knew fessing up was necessary because the minute the two met in person, the poster would have realised the reality.

trans men can use the men’s loos if they want, this debate is about women’s single sex spaces!

I've seen conversations on here about people who find out their date is trans on the third date

I find that very hard to believe

I think one of the very few people who was absolutely certainly murdered for being a trans woman was killed by her prospective sexual client when he discovered that he had been deceived.

That was on the first ‘date’ , though.

The trans person knew fessing up was necessary because the minute the two met in person, the poster would have realised the reality.

Exactly. How can you not notice..?!

Sure, but if you make laws to protect those spaces then the laws apply to everyone.

So if the law says the use of spaces based on sex is biological sex at birth, then that means very masculine transmen by law use the women's spaces. If you say oh but transmen don't count they can use the men's loos then they're breaking the law and then sets a precedent for anyone to break the law.

The law is the law or it isnt.

Not sure how it could be enforced but I understand it gives women the right to challenge with the law behind them.

So if the law says the use of spaces based on sex is biological sex at birth, then that means very masculine transmen by law use the women's spaces.

But these so-called 'trans men' are still biologically women. I doubt other women would mind.