Transmen

[Questioningfolke]

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

There was definitely a Jeremy Springer episode once where a man found out his long term girlfriend was actually a man. I was fairly young when that was on and I remember being utterly baffled then as to how they could have not realised. Partly because the "girl" friend was quite obviously male, and partly because presumably they were having sex, so you'd think it would have been obvious at some point, even if they'd had the full surgery.. . Unless they'd never been intimate with a woman before, I guess 🤷‍♂️

There was definitely a Jeremy Springer episode once where a man found out his long term girlfriend was actually a man

And we are supposed to believe that I wouldn't believe anything on Jerry Springer!!

I don't think anyone is planning inspections (documentation or genital) in at the entrance to toilets. So if they "pass", they pass. They go in, use the toilet, leave, and nobody's any the wiser.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Yeah but who decides who passes?

And if the person feels that they do pass, but women are forced to leave the women's space because the attempt to deceive them into using a mixed sex space has failed?

Women cannot police men out of their spaces. This does not work. It is not ok to exclude women from women's spaces so that men can enjoy using them.

So if the law says the use of spaces based on sex is biological sex at birth, then that means very masculine transmen by law use the women's spaces. If you say oh but transmen don't count they can use the men's loos then they're breaking the law and then sets a precedent for anyone to break the law.

The law is the law or it isnt.

The "law" doesn't have to be symmetrical though. It's perfectly possible to have female-only spaces without requiring male-only spaces. The "law" should follow the need not some arbitrary concept of "fairness".

Inverted commas:

"Law" because hitherto we didn't need a law, we just had a shared acceptance that single sex spaces were entirely reasonable which most people chose to respect. Those who would not respect the need were thought less of and if necessary challenged, with social approval behind the challenger. I'd rather push for society's acceptance that female people exist and have the moral right to female-only support for the challenges that come with being female in a male-dominated society than for things to be so broken that we have to have it written into law just to be treated with respect and acceptance. (Or rather, since society does accept this when it's not being shouted over or emotionally blackmailed by TRAs, I'd push for it to be simply stated and accepted openly without childish and blinkered ideologists throwing shit around at the audacious idea that female people might have needs and voices of their own).

"fairness" because treating everyone the same when some start with unfair ad/disadvantages is not fair... it's like giving a short person a taller seat, then everyone else also getting a taller seat. Or going back, annoyingly, to toilets, we have disabled only toilets which non-disabled people are not supposed to use, certainly not if a disabled person has need. But we don't ban disabled people from the other loos.

The obvious answer is the need for additional gender neutral spaces.

Not to force women to shut up and accept male people of all identities or just live with exclusion from public life as their sex based biological duty to the Penis People.

This is about ending the exclusion and harm to women who require biological sex based spaces. Other people's 'complicated' is not an acceptable reason to just accept the discrimination and inequality for 52% of the population.

But the new changes will mean that can't and shouldn't which is what this thread is about.

*that they can't

That depends on how the changes are written. The legal protections for F people and M people aren’t symmetrical and never have been (blokes don’t need maternity provision, for starters) so no reason to assume they would be now.

Well the women using the toilets decide. There aren't going to be toilet police ffs!

The important thing is that there shouldn't be any expectation that "transwomen" have a right to be in women's toilets. Then women are free to rightfully, and without fear of recrimination, "police" this themselves the same way they would, and always have, if a man (non-trans identifying regular man type man) went in the women's toilets. They can ask him to leave, they can gang up and ask him to leave. They can report him to the facilities management, report him to the police. They can do all sorts of stuff, the point is it's self regulated.

But if a "transwoman" genuinely passes and goes into women's toilets we'll just have to live with that, because there's nothing can be done about it.

A lot of money has been spent on creating mixed sex spaces instead of adding third ones.

That was because of trans activism.

The "law" doesn't have to be symmetrical though. It's perfectly possible to have female-only spaces without requiring male-only spaces. The "law" should follow the need not some arbitrary concept of "fairness".

Exactly.

Women are vulnerable and need protection, not men!

I don't think I would be able to tell 100% of the time. Like you say if someone "passed" as the opposite sex I would be none the wiser.

I do think though in the vast majority of cases if you meet a person IRL (not just see a photo online) you can tell. Most TM seem to grow beards and I think this could potentially fool me in the first instance or in a fleeting situation. But if I spent any time with that person I think reality would eventually re-assert itself.

In the dark, oppressive days before the last Labour Government liberated us with the brilliant and coherent EA2010, we had to rely on an unnatural and artificial social concept called honesty.

It used to work like this....

Most people were honest with themselves and wouldn't dream of breaking the unwritten social contract by using the opposite sex's facilities.

This was backed up by by the expectation of honesty if your presence was queried. People would accept your answer and apologise. The threat of the query was sufficient to discourage those who wanted to break the contract.

The system wasn't foolproof as there were people who might lie. If you were certain that the person had lied (I believe that the current expression is "at it") you were free to invite them to leave. This seemed to work

The "law" doesn't have to be symmetrical though. It's perfectly possible to have female-only spaces without requiring male-only spaces. The "law" should follow the need not some arbitrary concept of "fairness".

I agree with this.

Also a person using toilet facilities that don't match their sex isn't really "breaking the law". This suggests that a person using the wrong bathroom is doing something illegal / criminal, which is not the case (in the UK at least)

so how exactly does that work?

If they "pass" you can't tell they're trans. When people enter a restroom, do you ask to see their genitals?

🙄

It means people of the opposite sex and not entitled to be there.

And if/when women object, the law would be on their side.

Rapists, abusers, perverts, fetishists - none of them come with handy labels. Right? So we don’t know which people are nice, and which might harm us.

So - all people with penises and/or XY chromosomes: out of our single sex spaces, regardless of how they identify, what their wooly gender is, and whether they might ‘pass’ (to some people). Out. By law.

I'm lesbian. My VERY butch wife is most of the times treated as a transman and she really hates it, finds it awkward when people use the wrong pronouns (he/his) when adressing her and is very embarassed when she needs to go to the bathroom at work or any public place. She uses the women's toilet and is sometimes met with a situation in which a woman doesn't notice that she is a woman too. She's had issues with this at work. She doesn't want to use the men's bathroom as she doesn't feel comfortable and safe there because she is a woman. It does get very tense sometimes. She doesn't have a solution for this neither does her workplace (she works in a hospital). We have discussed this at lenght. Our not ideal solution's been to go to places where there are single space toilets whenever we have that choice. It's a real souce of pain for her because some woke people try to explain to her that she is in fact a transman and that she should use the mens toilet. She is just a butch lesbian. She jokes and says she is "vintage", from a time in which butch lesbians were butch lesbians and not trans. It's not really funny but I guess this is how she copes.

The assumption is that people agree to the implicit social contract which has governed public toilets for as long as they have existed for each sex, i.e., that the person chooses to go to the toilet matching their sex. Once that social contract has been broken, we get discussions of this type.

Arguably the contract has already been broken.
Once a social contract has been broken is it ever possible to go back?

Many venues wouso say they haven’t got the space for three different sets of toilets. The easiest solution is the have Female Only toilets and Mixed toilets.

But we all know why that isn’t happening. We don’t want to upset a few TW so we will upset women, who we dont give a shit about.

@Inthetropics

I'm really sorry that your wife is treated that way.

It really nails the TRA lie that they are concerned about GNC and butch women, when it's trans people who have brought this nonsense on them.

Men might be just as unhappy as women about "their" space being overtaken by others. I think we either have a law about single sex spaces or we don't, picking and choosing on behalf of other people isn't reasonable.

We all know what is happening with you as well, you don't think you should be upset but you think it is an easy solution to upset men. Shame on you.

Why do people think it is any of their business, it baffles me. Presumably the same people who think she should use men's toilets as she is trans (in their ignorant opinion) will also think a transwoman shouldn't use the women's toilets. The sense of entitlement of some people is just amazing. They really do want their cake and eat it.