Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

Greetings, fellow person with genuine question!

isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

You can't contradict basic fact any more than you can 'contradict' gravity.

Why would they want to be there, though? As male-identifying, surely the last place they would want to be is a female-only space?

Yes I would rather share a woman-only space with a woman who thinks she's a man than with a man who thinks he's a woman. Obviously.

Errrr… @itsturtlesallthewaydown why would you think females would not be welcome in female spaces? I’m just asking this on the off chance this is not a drop and run you understand.

As trans men remain female they are potentially at the same risk from the male population as women. So sometimes it will be appropriate for them to be in female spaces, for their safety. Prison being an obvious one. Sometimes they might need to be in female spaces because of their biology, like on a post natal ward if they have given birth.

Otherwise, my assumption would be that trans men would want to be in facilities usually used by males, as to remain in female spaces would be dysphoric and triggering. So I wouldn't expect they'd want to use womens toilets, and I don't care if they use the mens. That would be for men to object to, if they feel unhappy with that.

From a safeguarding point of view then yes, very welcome. From a sports point of view they need to be clean of performance enhancing drugs but otherwise yes, why not? I’d add they should be free to win women’s awards and prizes.

I don't speak for the GC community but I wouldn't have a problem with this.

I think the TM would have more of an issue with it, but if they felt they couldn't pee in the men's, welcome to pee in the ladies.

The 0.1% of the female population who identify as men are welcome in women's spaces.

They're women.

women , even MN women , have very diverse opinions on this

it rarely happens because the F2M tend to not want to be in the female spaces

But there have been some corner cars - rape crisis for example - and for those people who object to the inclusion it tends to boil down to how likely that is to set of PSTD

• because women tend to suffer a lot of pstd caused by sexual abuse

Sone other people also feel like "well hey rejected me so I'll reject them "

And others say "they are women , so what the problem ?"

There may be more variations - after all ther are a lot of people on this board

Maybe because they were still transitioning? Or because they were uncomfortable in some male only spaces still? I imagine it's pretty hard being trans, not really belonging anywhere.

Females belong in female facilities as a point of biology.

If the colour of sanitary protections are allegedly so triggering to trans men ( no pink please) then I can't see why they would want to be in a female toilet. if they are chest feeding and not breast feeding ditto. Are there any reported cases of assault or harassment on trans men in "men's spaces"?

Even if they appeared male? How could someone tell they were born female?

It's not a really deep question, I was just curious what the line on it was.

They are still women so of course they should be there if they wish to be.

Can only speak for myself. If a trans man actually passes, I'd expect them to use men's loos and changing rooms etc. rather than making other women uncomfortable, and I assume most would want to use the men's facilities too. I think prisons and refuges are a different matter as it's more long-term and there's a change to get to know someone and establish that they're female. I also wouldn't want them to be endangered by being in a male prison.
Trans men who don't pass/are obviously female (like the one in the underwear ad thread) can go wherever, afaic. In the women's or men's if they're more comfortable there. Protecting men's spaces from females isn't my concern. I kind of see them as open categories, though I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that.

True, I’m sure it must be hard being trans. And I agree with PP, females with a trans identity are perfectly welcome in female spaces. The alternative could put them in dangerous situations, such as male prisons and sports, or lead to a loss of essential services. There are not many rape crisis centres set up for men, so treating them as men would result in them not being able to access services.

You're right, it's not a deep question.

Transwoman in my toilet? No they can do one.

Transman in my toilet? Of course they are after all a woman.

Is this supposed to be some not so subtle trap we all fall into and out ourselves as transphobic bigots? Rather than just wanting men to piss off and use the gents?

I’d say so @Boiledbeetle . Here we go again. Gin?

I think mostly you can tell but even if you can’t does it matter. Why would a trans man want to be in a female space? It goes again the point if being trans.

If what you’re asking if can you ask someone who appears make why they are in a female space, the concern is surely they are actually a natal male? And that’s worry about trans is not a trans man is it.

Sigh

And yes please

No.

@Boiledbeetle ill make it triples. Looks like we’re gonna need them 😀

Here we go again, yet another faux 'I just don't understand' post trying to catch the meanie women out.