Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

Thank you xx

Replying to this has made me late for school!

Actually @BloodAndFire you came onto the thread and made a lot of accusations that very much sounded like you were aiming at women here.

Helle very generously invited you to clarify exactly who you were calling bigots and anti semites. The rest of us assumed you meant what you said, that it was women here.

So I think if anyone needs to apologise and extend an olive branch, it might not be the women you've upset with your accusations. If you made a mistake and you didn't mean us, then fair enough, but I think the histrionics are a bit much.

We get plenty of drive by accusations of bigotry here, as I'm sure you can appreciate. It's hardly surprising if women dismiss or mock you in response.

I don't think it's about sides, I think it's about being clear what we want. If someone's ultimate goal is to make abortion or same sex marriage illegal, they're not fighting for the same goals as I am.

BloodAndFire, who are these GC women who are posting anti-abortion, anti-semitic and homophobic views? This matters to me and, I'm sure, others.

I'm not familiar with either of your posting names, perhaps because I don't follow the KJK thread. Your earlier post regarding anti-semitism appeared in the middle of a flurry of posts in which people had been commenting on the way a certain group of hard-left socialist feminists based in Brighton are trying to denounce KJK/ WDI/WoLF by insisting that they are associated with the right wing. I had my suspicions that you were one of that group lobbing accusations of anti-semitism into the mix. My apologies if I've got that wrong.

I'm one of the band of former Labour voters, now politically homeless, who rather naively hoped that women could ignore difference and work together as women, for women. I attended Filia last year and was left disconcerted by an event held by WPUK, a group I once admired, and I posted here about it. I had no idea what I was opening up. It's been a disillusioning experience. That thread is included in the OP's original post and you can access it and assure yourself that I'm coming from a position pretty close to yours. I mistook you for a far-left bear. I apologise.

Thank you @pattihews I'm now running down to school but I will respond properly when I'm home. I appreciate everything you have said in your post

I fucking hate Brighton fwiw.

I agree. I have various opinions - some you would characterise as left wing, some as right wing, some apolitical, most somewhere in the middle. Just because I care about women and kids doesn't mean I have to be called GC and then answer for anyone else you've given that label to. I'm my own person. KJK is her own person. Matt Walsh is his own person. Happy to be on the same side as both of them in this fight. In a different situation we might all be on different sides.

So bored of the schoolyard stuff where we all have to def out the people with the wrong opinions/past/hair.

I have seen Taylor Silverman's tweets lately. I think it is important though to think that the term 'gender critical' has been effectively detached from the word feminist. At least TERF had feminist at the end.

I don't look at Taylor's work as being feminist. I think this is partly where this division is happening. I agree, there are people out there that have very different motivations to feminists. It is really important to acknowledge that and I don't know many regulars that do. I mean, you have picked a really good example in Taylor.

I also don't think I am alone in that I never really took to the term 'gender critical' as a term to cover what I am working towards and certainly don't take it for myself unless I am pushed. If others want to, that is fine. But right now it has become a catch cry for all people in one movement with different motivations.

As for those women who want to be in their own group as socialist feminists, I am fully supportive of that. I am very happy for them to do this. What I don't support is the way they have targeted others and IIRC you would agree with that.

So Bloodandfire you have a point.

"What is the point of fighting for the definition of woman if it doesn't go along with defending our actual rights?"

The point is that if we are not in the fight, whose aims then get realised? We have to continue, we have to fight. But we have to make sure that the outcomes are still feminist outcomes that protect women and children for the right reasons.

As with the constant discussions that are had about Matt Walsh. We cannot stop Matt Walsh from supporting what he wants to happen, but we can, en masse, work to shape the outcome. He doesn't have to 'win' just because he is loud.

You know it would be the decent thing to apologise for this pile of made up horseshit but I am sure you won't.

If I'd spotted this earlier I might have decided not to apologise. I'm going to take my apology back, BloodAndFire, pending arbitration/ confirmation.

You wouldn't apologise because I asked for an apology? OK...

Not sure what 'arbitration / confirmation ' you're expecting but my posts are all there to be searched. I'm not playing stupid games. It's not nice to be accused of being a liar and a fraud.

Here's how it went:

Blood/moth: you're all bigots and fascists

Women here: no we're not/that's dumb/show your workings/general mockery

Blood/moth: omg you're all bullies! I didn't mean what I said! You need to apologise to me you horrible witches! I've been harmed! Why won't you have a proper conversation with me?!?

It could all have gone differently, if you just didn't start off by calling us names tbh.

No, because it wasn't made up horseshit — as I've explained. Hasn't anything you've read from any of the other contributors enabled you to appreciate how your post looked to those of us here? You added the anti-semitic bomb to the mix in a way that seemed to indicate that we might be anti-semitic, then told us off when we reacted to it, then demanded an apology. It's as if you're allowed to be punchy and rude but we're not. I'm not playing games, though I do quite like to play with words, which was what arbitration/ confirmation was.

Sorry @BloodAndFire i responded to your initial post in a smart arse fashion that could have been taken as personal criticism of your views (it wasn’t intended as such)

I have been trying to remember that there’s always a person behind the words and failed today, mea culpa

Hasn't anything you've read from any of the other contributors enabled you to appreciate how your post looked to those of us here?

Yes, the posts from you, @Helleofabore and @NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom did explain that and I thanked you all for them. And meant it.

The posts calling me a far left Brighton and Hove whatever-whatever were, however, still a load of made-up horseshit. Kind of by definition, as it is completely wrong, and the person asserting it so confidently couldn't have had any idea at all of what they were saying, given that it is, in fact, a load of horseshit.

I appreciate the more measured posts that have enabled me to understand why I got the response I did, and am happy to move past it and discuss stuff with actual substance, rather than name-calling.

Thank you x
I don't mind criticism of my views at all, such as they are.

I really bloody mind a load of lies saying I'm someone I'm not or that I'm acting on behalf of organisations/factions I've never heard of.

I am not by any stretch of the imagination deeply involved in this particular factional war. I posted my genuine initial reaction to the Radical Notion magazine, on reading it for the first time earlier today. I thought it made some very legitimate points

I agree with pretty much all of this. I chose Matt Walsh as the first name that comes to mind, but would very happily never think about or see his name ever again

The point is that if we are not in the fight, whose aims then get realised? We have to continue, we have to fight. But we have to make sure that the outcomes are still feminist outcomes that protect women and children for the right reasons.

Yes exactly. I am very concerned that I don't end up, one way or another, promoting and amplifying views that go against everything I believe in - other than that we both believe that people can't change sex.

I don't look at Taylor's work as being feminist. I think this is partly where this division is happening. I agree, there are people out there that have very different motivations to feminists. It is really important to acknowledge that and I don't know many regulars that do. I mean, you have picked a really good example in Taylor.

Yes, I think this is the crux of it. It really came home to me today that there are people 'in the fight' who are not just not feminists, but actively opposed to feminism.

I think for me there are two completely separate, but both very important, reasons to hold out against 'TWAW'

1. Is about reality. It's about holding the line between truth and fiction, between fact and language games, and saying that no, you cannot make up into down, or 2+2 = 5, just because you say it does. This matters because it just does. Reality matters. Holding the line that there is a real world out there that cannot be transformed by changing language is a crucial thing in and of itself. In this sense, anyone who agrees is worth having on board.
2. Is about feminism and women's rights. It's practical. It's about defending women and girls, not only from trans rights activists, but also from all of the other threats to our rights and our safety - those who seek to outlaw abortion or contraception, 'trad wives', those who excuse sexual abuse, those who promote prostitution as a great choice for women, etc etc etc. It's far bigger than the gender thing. And in this sense, not everyone is 'on board' at all. In fact, many of the people who are 'on our side' are in fact working against us.

What does it matter if we win the fight over who a woman is, but we end up with no rights?

I'm sure the Taliban aren't confused about who is male and who is female, but it doesn't make them feminists.

I don't really like the term gender critical, nor TERF. I'd rather just call myself a feminist, but I will use gc as a shorthand for where I stand on all this.

One thing I am definitely not, by any stretch of the imagination, is 'far left' or a socialist. Maybe a long time ago.

@Helleofabore and sorry again about name changing. Technical problems...

I’d like to know how many of you here have left the social media sphere and engaged in real life with institutions, I’d like to share feedback about that, and how to approach it . I don’t care how you vote is like to know what you are doing in the real world and how so that I can learn from that.

*I’d

I really bloody mind a load of lies saying I'm someone I'm not or that I'm acting on behalf of organisations/factions I've never heard of.

I said:
My money's on:
Lives in Brighton
Involved with WPUK and The Radical Notion

Look how quickly we've gone from 'teaming up' to being bedfellows with the far right religieuse. Four posts, was it? The fire alarm's gone off down in Brighton and Hove.

Not lies, speculation based on an earlier attack by someone calling us Farage feminists, among other things, for having this conversation. Only a few posts before your first post someone had accused us of teaming up with the right. Your post seemed to suggest that we were bedfellows with anti-semites.

You can continue being outraged if you want, your prerogative. But could you provide links to the GC women on Twitter who you said were expressing anti-semitism, because I'd like to know about it. Is Taylor Silverman it?

Why don't you start a new thread to ask that question? It doesn't really fit in very well with the flow of this one. I'm sure loads of women would be happy to tell you what they do.

TS has not been antisemitic to the best of my knowledge. She is Jewish, I believe. As am I. I mentioned her as an example of someone who is 'gender critical' but otherwise very anti women's rights. She is, for example, very anti abortion and homophobic.

I mentioned Jennifer James, two flames, as an example of a gc antisemite. JJ also identifies herself as a socialist and is a huge corbynite. I asked her to return a contribution I'd made years ago when I discovered quite how antisemitic she is.

And I hadn't read the rest of the thread. I read the Radical Notion pdf and came on here looking to discuss it, found the thread, posted on it.

Was really not expecting those responses. I'm not outraged, I'm pissed off, irritated, and above all really sad that it has come to this.

As per my posts to @Helleofabore above, I'm interested in discussing the real substance of these issues, not in playground name calling. I've tried to move on to discussing the actual issues raised in the Radical notion articles.

Oh well, we have something in common. I got my money back from Jennifer James too.

So... who are the GC women who are expressing anti-semitic opinions?

Bloodandfire, you came onto the thread and said: I'm Jewish and I am very uncomfortable with some of the bedfellows here who are racist, antisemitic, anti abortion and homophobic.

That's what people were responding to. You now say:

Was really not expecting those responses. I'm not outraged, I'm pissed off, irritated, and above all really sad that it has come to this.

Well, if you had read your own comment back, you would have expected those responses. Because what you did was come on here and accuse us of being antisemitic, anti abortion and homophobic.

You also admit you hadn't bothered to read the thread, so again, if you had done so, you would have seen the context into which you dropped these remarks. And again, you would have expected the responses you got.

I appreciate that you are now saying that was a mistake on your part and that you didn't mean us. Fair enough. But the continued complaining about women responding to you and demands for apologies are grating on me. We are not mind readers. If you say something you don't actually mean, then of course you're going to get responses that bother you.

I'm interested in discussing the real substance of these issues, not in playground name calling. I've tried to move on to discussing the actual issues raised in the Radical notion articles.

It's easier for everyone to move on if you take some responsibility for yourself. Instead of banging on about how shit we all are for not being able to know the inner workings of your mind and responding to your actual words on the thread, how about you apologise for the upset you caused? Or at the very least, stop banging on about how wounded you are.

So... who are the GC women who are expressing anti-semitic opinions?

Yes, who are they? In the Labour Party, I assume?

I had stopped, ages ago. I posted a long reply to @Helleofabore about an hour ago (?) Where I set out what I see as some of the most troubling issues raised (or highlighted) by the Radical notion pdf.

I'm not expecting or asking for apologies. I think this sort of thing is exactly why the gc movement (or whatever you want to call it) is eating itself alive. I would much rather address the really problematic issues. And I think the Radical notion articles do do that.

I'm not here to uncritically stand up for any individual or 'faction', but neither do I think it should be verboten to acknowledge some of the very valid points made in it.

A lot of which come down to the very vexed question of what do you do when some people share some of your views, but some of their other campaigns are truly despicable, and go against everything else you believe in?

Like I said, I'm Jewish, and reached a point in around 2017 where I could no longer count myself a Labour Party suppprter because the rot was too extreme and widespread, and had extended to attacks on me and my family and my kids.

This isn't the first time I've faced this sort of difficult question, and I don't think it does anyone any favours to pretend that these are not difficult questions