Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

To further my point - both left and right think that if the person on the other side could just get their thoughts together and have all the information they will come over to the 'correct side' but due to the personality differenxe the other person will never see things your way.

So we could get more from listening to the other side, and considering their viewpoint, rather than trying to change them.

Don’t apologise, it was good!

Sounds suspiciously Jordan Peterson-y mind you, so you must be a DIRTY RIGHT WING BIGOT

(not really 😘🌸)

@BlessedKali there was a Radio 4 programme by Helen Lewis, The Spark, which had an interesting episode on the Authoritarian predisposition. Basically research in various communities around the world has indicated that I think around 30% of people are inclined to an authoritarian disposition. Of course, that authoritarianism can be left or right. I haven't listened to it for quite some time but it explained the appeal of religion, 'hard man' leaders such as Putin and probably half the Tory party. And also Corbyn and all the violent and misogynistic rhetoric of the far left.
Here's the link:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000y7sq

Worth bearing in mind when we encounter women who are very keen on telling us what to do and think.

Ledt and right, a horsehow shape meeting in the middle at authoritarianism/totalitarianism.

I'm so old I was expecting the Beatles.

Thanks @GrinitchSpinach , that’s very helpful.

Honestly, it is depressing as fuck to have reached this 'judean people's front' point, where anyone expressing even the slightest nuance or wanting to talk through difficult issues is ridiculed, accused of all sorts of irrelevant (and wrong) shit, accused of ulterior motives, mocked, etc.

I don't know when that happened here but, like I said, I've posted here for years and it hasn't always been this way.

I'm not interested in insulting people and claiming to have special knowledge or insinuating they have an agenda. Shitty, horrible tactics, but I am in no doubt that no one will retract any of them.

How utterly shit and really sad that it has come to this. I had no idea until today that it was as bad as this. Fuck this shit.

Worth bearing in mind when we encounter women who are very keen on telling us what to do and think.

The reality is pretty much this sentence.

All this to'ing and fro'ing becomes quite moot, I think, when you look at the fact that women are reacting to being scolded, patronised and told who we should listen to and read.

At this point, I am so over being told I am 'not enough' by some feminists, and by some activists of another movement, and the lying and deceptive commentary that is contradictory when you read it, yet is being lauded for clarity by others. But either way, based on deception and misrepresentation.

The whole thing is tribal, but it is not even that which is the most concerning. It really is the deception and dishonesty. And the shaming. Fuck that shaming.

I'm Jewish and I am very uncomfortable with some of the bedfellows here who are racist, antisemitic, anti abortion and homophobic.

Would you please clarify, which people have the bedfellows you are talking about? MNers? Kellie Jay Keen? Another group of people?

So I follow lots of gender critical accounts on twitter and have done for years. In the past, I've had massive problems with certain gc voices who were also very antisemitic- these were mostly/all left wing rather than right wing. E.g. Jennifer James (twoflames)

Before I type more (on my phone and walking), please could you reassure me that you are asking a genuine question,because I am answering you in good faith. Thanks

Sorry, I am also ClearMoth. Name change fail.

@Helleofabore and no, I don't mean mumsnetters nor do I mean KJK personally. If you look on the KJK appreciation threads you will see plenty of posts from me.

@Helleofabore so I have been accustomed to the fact that there has been a certain degree of crossover between some corbynite types and gender critical feminists. Sometimes this has been a real difficulty for me in terms of feeling that I have to make a decision about where to put my support. I can't, in the end, support any individual who is actively bigoted against a minority group that I belong to (e.g. Jennifer James)

I am asking you in good faith.

I also suspect that you may have received pushback because it is not clear who you are referred to. I am asking because to me, it is not clear who you are talking about but I also like to clarify if I am not sure that I have misinterpreted someone' post.

I also know what it is like posting on a phone and not being able to get the clarity on your phone that you would on a larger screen.

The word 'here' in that sentence leads one to believe you could mean 'on MN'. But I also reread it and thought there might be an alternative interpretation. Hence my asking who you are thinking of.

I know your username, hence my asking.

@Helleofabore in recent months I have been aware of an increasing number of people on twitter who I follow due to being gc expressing unpleasantly homophobic or anti abortion views.

It is incredibly important to me to defend the rights of women and girls. For me this cannot be at the expense of giving up other essential beliefs and principles. I've seen gc stuff that absolutely does cross over into homophobia (eg Taylor silverman) or misogyny (eg matt walsh).

What is the point of fighting for the definition of woman if it doesn't go along with defending our actual rights?

I also really, really hate and despise the way this has become a war of personalities and individuals. The ridiculous and way off the mark attacks on me for being from Brighton (ffs) or affiliated with organisations I haven't even heard of, for expressing a view that goes slightly against the majority, is unworthy of a civilised conversation between adults. Going to collect my youngest from school now..this is all just incredibly sad and stupid.

I have noticed that intersectionalism / IDPOL generally doesn’t seem to know wtf to do with itself regarding fitting Jewish people into their preferred theories of social hierarchy.

Thank you..I did not mean MN when I said 'here'. Not even sure what that word is doing there.

Thanks for asking in good faith and giving me the opportunity to clarify, rather than accusing me of all sorts of random shit.

I will be on a proper laptop later and able to type more coherently.i honestly didn't realise things had reached this point and am properly upset by it. Divide and conquer eh?

Right.the relationship between antisemitism and all these different issues is just as confused and complex as it was(is) re communism, capitalism etc. (I.e. right wingers call us bolsheviks who want to bring down the country, left wingers call us capitalist shills)

I am grateful to know a lot of other gc Jewish women. Hadley freeman and Nicole Lampert being two obvious examples. I do think seeing the workings of antisemitism (and the outright lies people tell about us) can be a helpful primer to what it's like to go against the dominant ideology.

Exhausting, depressing and hopeless, a lot of the time...

I think gender critical is an adjective.

Also, is someone such as Matt Walsh actualyl 'gender critical'? How does wnyone know that. If he thinks women should get in the kitchen and do the dishes then he isn't gender critical is he. (sorry matt walsh i have no idea if u think this...)

Im not sure why we take people who agree on a certain principle, and then turn them into some sort of geoup or team. Its too sinplistic and creates an 'us and them'.

If you were pro brexit you are a 'brexiteer'

If you didnt have a vaccine you are an 'anti-vaxer'

If you are critical of 'gender' you are 'on the gc side'

Its just stupid.

By gc I mean standing up for the reality that men can't become women.

Perhaps it's not the correct term but the point I'm making is that just because he, or someone else, might be right about that, doesn't mean he's someone I personally can stand with.

If someone wants to make abortion illegal, that does as much damage to me and my daughter and other women as someone who calls a man a woman.

You know it would be the decent thing to apologise for this pile of made up horseshit but I am sure you won't.

I’m sorry that this thread has added to those feelings

You sincerely made a half post intending to come back when you had more time not realising that you’d innocently wandered into a bit of a shit-storm-in-process (which is fair enough).

Almost every time KJK comes up in topic we have to batten down the hatches as a defence mechanism and I suppose that will, unfortunately, inevitably, leave some women stranded on the other side of the storm defences.

The current storm is across several threads at once so if you are only looking at one of them it probably is a bit bewildering.

So happy to offer a reset and a
promise listen (read!) when you’ve got time to post.

You have reminded me to go buy a copy of Hadley’s new book, so that’s something positive!