Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

I haven't met many Labour antisemites who are also gc. In my personal experience, most of the antisemites in Labour (not all) are pretty pro-trans

I think you can be antiabortion due to religious or other ethical reasons and still want women to have the same rights as men and have women's sports and women only prisons.
I am prochoice but the idea all true feminists think women should be able to kill their foetus if they want is a rather odd one to have as a sign of true feminism.
I wouldn't be comfortable aligning myself with people who stand outside abortion clinics and protest or hurl abuse ( most TOPs are done in DGHs in Scotland though) but I don't see believing killing a foetus is wrong as incompatible with feminism or we are saying many women with strong religious beliefs can't possibly be feminists.

Who are you talking about then? Not FWR - it's clear that the vast majority here are not bigots of any kind. Not the LP. So far we've got Jennifer James and Matt Walsh - is that it? As far as I know, no one is 'aligned' with them on anything other than the plain fact that men aren't women. So could you explain exactly what the problem is, as you see it?

No I'm not talking about FWR.

I think you'd have to be mad to describe the Labour Party currently as either gc or not antisemitic.

No, it's not just those two (I've already named several others e.g Taylor silverman), but i also don't think that antisemitism is the most worrying aspect.

I think misogyny, homophobia, and an alignment with right wingers such as The Proud Boys or Trump followers are more pressing problems.
I think this is all set out pretty well in the Radical notion articles but I'm happy to share their links and references when I'm back on my laptop shortly.

I think misogyny, homophobia, and an alignment with right wingers such as The Proud Boys or Trump followers are more pressing problems.

Not this again.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo

(For the record, personally, both as a Jew and as a woman I feel more immediately threatened by the trans rights movement at present. But i am not comfortable with standing shoulder to shoulder with those who want to ban abortion or same-sex marriage, or who despise Muslims or immigrants either)

I'm not having an argument with you. I'm happy to share my views in good faith and hope you are doing the same.

I'm not here to uncritically stand up for any individual or 'faction', but neither do I think it should be verboten to acknowledge some of the very valid points made in it.

It's not verboten, obviously. Please tell us what these "very valid points" are.

A lot of which come down to the very vexed question of what do you do when some people share some of your views, but some of their other campaigns are truly despicable, and go against everything else you believe in?

We've had this discussion a lot on FWR and the broad consensus, I'd say, is that you work with people on shared goals as and when it's politically expedient. But that it's up to every individual activist to decide and no one really has a problem with who you do or don't decide to work with.

(We've also discussed ad nauseum the way in which "working with" is taken to mean everything from sharing a platform to standing near someone in a field.)

So do you think that you or the Real Feminists or someone else should get to tell women's rights activists who they should or shouldn't be working with? Why?

This isn't the first time I've faced this sort of difficult question, and I don't think it does anyone any favours to pretend that these are not difficult questions

I don't think it's that difficult, personally. I don't have a problem with "working with" Matt Walsh on a single issue. I don't agree with him on many other subjects, but I appreciate his voice and influence on this one. On the other hand, I wouldn't work with Jennifer James in a million years, because she's proved herself to be untrustworthy. I wouldn't work with actual fascists, in part because there are none in the UK. Well, there's 26. But I don't think any of them are interested in women's rights activism.

Other women may draw their personal line wherever they see fit. It's not up to me to judge. (Although I will say that those who are more open to cross-party working, as it were, are having a WAY bigger impact than those who want to keep themselves pure and unsullied by other people's differing opinions.)

What do you find difficult about it?

I was answering someone's question. Which is entirely relevant to the subject of this thread- i.e. the content of the Radical Notion articles.

You don't have to post on this thread if you are bored of it.

I think misogyny, homophobia, and an alignment with right wingers such as The Proud Boys or Trump followers are more pressing problems.

But who are you talking about? What do you mean? Who's aligning with the Proud Boys? (Trump followers - well voters, anyway - are half of all voting Americans, so I think we're probably all aligned with at least one of those, whether we know it or not.)

Please name names and - as I asked before - bring the receipts. And not the same screenshot we've seen 20 times before or the same links to the same Hatchet article. Thanks.

I think it's obvious that it's difficult deciding if you want to work together politically with people who have some views you find either offensive or actively endanger you (e.g. banning abortion, being antisemitic etc.)

Isn't it? It seems obviously problematic to me. I couldn't e.g. vote for Labour in 2015 or 2019 because it would have directly endangered my family, even though in most cases I agreed with their policies. The difficulty there seems self evident to me - don't you see that?

I'll reply to your other questions in a minute with the document open. Still stuck on my phone here.

I don't know what you've seen before. I can share what I've read and what concerned me. If you've seen it before, I can't help that

Can you tell me about the actual cases of misogyny, homophobia, alignment with right wingers that are such a problem.

Because every time this comes up, there never seems to be anything of any substance. If you've substantive info then great. I would love to hear it.

But i am not comfortable with standing shoulder to shoulder with those who want to ban abortion or same-sex marriage, or who despise Muslims or immigrants either

What do you mean "standing shoulder to shoulder"? Can you be specific please?

For example, Julie Bindel going on a speaking tour with paid up alt-righter Milo Yiannopoulis. Is that "standing shoulder to shoulder"? Why or why not?

Or KJK having her photo taken with someone who used to be (but isn't any longer) a Proud Boy. Is that "standing shoulder to shoulder"? Why or why not?

Who are the people who despise Muslims and who is standing shoulder to shoulder with them, and how are they doing this?

You are going to have to be more specific if you want to make any headway with this argument.

I've barely heard of Jennifer James for years.
Matt Walsh isn't a feminist.

If you fling enough mud around it will end up in someone's tea. This is all such nonsense.

@beastlyslumber

So do you think that you or the Real Feminists or someone else should get to tell women's rights activists who they should or shouldn't be working with? Why?

I can answer this one easily though. No, I don't think i or anyone should be able to tell people who to work with.

Anyone can do whatever they want. And anyone else can express their views about it.

Like i said, give me a few minutes to get on my laptop. It's too fiddly on my phone.

I have 70 pages of a report to edit before bed so I anticipate being stuck there most of the evening.

But i am not comfortable with standing shoulder to shoulder with those who want to ban abortion or same-sex marriage, or who despise Muslims or immigrants either

day to day I don't either. But when I'm naked in a changing room or in a female prison, as long as they aren't men I'll live with it.

And I'm not trying to argue in the sense of 'win'. I think all this stuff really matters and I don't think it should be dismissed
I think you are right to ask the questions and I also think that you should be open to considering the answers, and the nuances and the problems.

@ClearMoth when you get a minute, would it be okay for you to C&P some quotes from TRN that you found persuasive please. I find the vibe of the publication irritating and don’t want to go on a hunt myself. Ta.

Are you saying you don't do a purity survey with people who you meet on a day to day basis before you stand shoulder to shoulder with them in the post office?

Lightweight.

Why is it difficult? You said you couldn't vote Labour - you made that decision. I've made the same decision not to vote Labour. It was a bit sad, but it wasn't difficult. I mean, I can understand you might find it emotionally difficult - is that what you mean?

In terms of individuals, though, I don't think that someone else's opinions actively endanger me. If Matt Walsh doesn't think I should have abortion rights, well, I disagree with him, and I'll put my own view. But his view doesn't endanger me, any more than mine endangers him, so why shouldn't I work with him on something we both agree on, if and when the opportunity arises?

Having said that, if you choose to say that you wouldn't work with MW because of him having different opinions to you, well, that's your prerogative. I might think that's a bit narrow-minded of you, but it's entirely your choice.

I would just like it if you gave the same respect and consideration to other women as they extend to you in that regard.

This is the crux of it I think.

For me it's not the only thing.. it is hugely important but it doesn't outweigh literally everything else.

I used the taliban as an extreme example above, but it's worth keeping in mind as the reductio ad absurdum. If you lived in Afghanistan you wouldn't have to get changed or share a hospital ward with a man. But you also couldn't leave the house unchaperoned, drive, go to school etc.

I am aware this is a very extreme example. But I'm saying it shows that recognising and correctly identifying people's sex isn't the one and only thing that cancels out every other possible concern

Yes I will, give me a minute

Okay. But it would behoove you to maybe read through some of the KJK threads first, so you are equally familiar with why those particular "receipts" are not considered evidence at all.

Thanks so much.