This is very important to read for all parents

[Yingyamgwingwen]

I know it's the daily mail but this is very important about a man who talks about his journey. It's really good reporting for once! It's about his trans journey and de transition. Counselling and mental health support is vital for all..

I'm de-transitioning and blame 'woke' culture for influencing teens mol.im/a/11691635 via dailym.ai/android

Not those who have been puberty blocked at Tanner stage 2. It’s impossible for them to orgasm. I’m sorry you don’t appreciate this. It’s very real.

Speak to Trans People? Have I woke up in 2017?

”It is deeply ironic that you are feigning concern about the long term wellbeing of trans people.”

Oh. There is that projection again.

Really, you should stop this projection. It isn’t serving you well.

“Yes trans affirming medical interventions have consequences.
so do the effects of natural puberty,”

You see. This is some twisting from you. It is a common twist we see from those who hold extreme views. It seems that you do.

Equating the natural changes of human puberty that the body is designed to do, is not actually analogous with hormonal and surgical treatments for children and adolescents.

“and living a lifetime of dysphoric distress and the social and functional difficulties of failing to pass.”

Ahhhh!!!! Here is that male dominant perspective I was talking about!

This passing narrative has been driven by males and, from the discussions we have had here and watched, mature males at that. Mature males who sometimes have had full lives and children, and mature males with sex lives and have their health. Who then have shaped the narrative with their retrospective views.

Female transitioners who eventually have treatment pass well enough. While you are on this board, maybe some will engage with you on this. Probably not because they don’t tend to.

One of the commonalities though with female transitioners seems to be that the majority of them know that they may ‘pass’ quite well. But they are also never really ‘men’. And that many times men know.

Either way.

“and living a lifetime of dysphoric distress and the social and functional difficulties of failing to pass.”

Puberty blockers and early hormone treatments suit the male body. It is very damaging to the female body.

Surgical and hormonal treatments for females should be held off for as long as possible. All other avenues extensively explored over a long period of time.

Because it is also well known that desistance rates are high in later years of those teen years. Not 16! But even at 18/19.

And during that time the mental health support should be very intensive and exploratory. Unlike what passes for ‘extensive’ under GIDS today. And all comorbidities and trauma explored and where needed, treated.

I believe that was the process that was supposed to happen here? And is not reaching that standard?

Writing off surgeries and the irreversible effects of hormones as “trans affirming medical interventions have consequences” is minimising the reality. It is a form of dismissal.

“You don’t understand the latter issues because you can’t relate to them. That’s doesn’t mean they aren’t real or are unimportant.”

You can keep repeating this over and over again

You really are not convincing anyone but yourself with this.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4732993-310123-interesting-twitter-thread-from-leor-sapir-about-finnish-paediatric-bodys-position?reply=123552808

Just want to link this thread here -

This post is VERY relevant to this discussions , especially Tandora's claims -

WarriorN · Today 07:20

BREAKING: Dr. Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finland's leading expert on pediatric gender medicine and chief psychiatrist at its largest gender clinic (Tampere University), just gave an interview to the country's leading newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat.

The interview highlights just how out of step the U.S. medical establishment is with its European counterparts on pediatric gender medicine. Doctors and medical groups in Finland have been willing and able to stand up to activists, including within their own ranks.

The context: Finland is considering a gender self-ID law for adults. The Finnish equivalent of Stonewall, a trans activist group, is quietly lobbying for the law to apply also to minors. Helsingin Sanomat interviewed Dr. Kaltiala for her thoughts on whether this is a good idea.

While it is "important to accept the child as they are," Kaltiala said, it's also necessary to recognize that "four out of five" children with cross-gender ID grow out of it during puberty and come to terms with their body/sex.

Accepting a child as they are, Kaltiala explained, means neither pressuring them to conform to sex-typical behaviors nor "negating the body" by confirming the gender self-ID. "In either case, the child gets a message that there is something wrong with him or her."

Changing the legal sex marker in youth, Kaltiala told the newspaper, is not a formality which states a fact, but a strong psychological and social intervention that guides the development of a young person. "It's a message saying that this is the right path for you."

For teenagers whose dysphoria began in childhood and intensified in puberty, discordant ID seems more stable. But for those in whom dysphoria began in adolescence, "the phenomenon is new, and therefore there is no scientific knowledge about the constancy of this experience."

"The developmental mission of youth is not helped by the fact that young people's self-expression
is supported and directed from the outside... The environment should also not commit to identity experiments in a way that might make a later change of direction anxiety-inducing."

This is also what Dutch clinician-researcher Dr. Thomas Steensma and his colleagues advised in a 2011 study. Desisting and persisting gender dysphoria after childhood: A qualitative follow-up study - Thomas D. Steensma, Roeline Biemond, Fijgje de Boer, Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis, 2011

Helsingin: Many young people grab the idea available in the media & social media that their problems are caused by gender identity & will be solved if others start to see them as members of the other sex.

That does not work, says Kaltiala. "A balance of the mind does not come from making others do and see what you want."

Helsingin: Activists... calling for hormone treatments for minors & legal gender recognition often repeat that trans youth have an increased risk of suicide & therefore urgently need care & support. "It's purposeful disinformation, & spreading it is irresponsible," says Kaltiala.

Suicidal thoughts and behavior are related to simultaneous psychiatric disorders also in young people who problematize their gender. "Mentally healthy young people who experience their sex in a way that is different from their biological bodies are not automatically suicidal."

[LS: This is the unfounded minority stress theory that co-occurring mental health problems, including suicidality, are secondary to "unaffirmed" gender and manageable only through social & medical transition. The suicide discourse relies on a correlation/causation fallacy.]

Helsingin: Suicide was a very rare occurrence in about ten years among young people seeking gender identity diagnoses. On the other hand, in a large Swedish study, suicide mortality had clearly increased among adults who had received gender reassignment treatments.

"Therefore it is not justified to tell the parents of young people identifying as transgender that a young person is at risk of suicide without medical treatments and that the danger can be alleviated with gender reassignment," says Kaltiala.

Kaltiala told the Finland Parliament Social & Health Committee that it would be better to not start any physical treatments based on gender identity before adulthood. A Finnish study found that the mental health of many minors who had received hormonal care... deteriorated.

Asked about the dominance of the suicide discourse, Kaltiala said: "adults who have themselves benefited from gender reassignment, have a desire to go out and save children and young people. But they lack the understanding that a child is not a small adult. "

In its statement to the Social and Health Committee, the Finnish Pediatric Society (equivalent to @AmerAcadPedss) said gender self-ID should not be extended to minors.*

[LS: American schools de-facto practice gender self-ID for kids as young as kindergarten]
Link to Helsingin article: hs.fi/tiede/art-2000…

Thanks to my translator.

If any of you see a mistake in translation, please let me know.

One additional point: although Kaltiala implies that gender dysphoria is more permanent if it begins in childhood and persists into adolescence, we actually don't have high quality, well-controlled studies showing this. It might be true, but we don't know this.

As a reminder, Dr. Kaltiala is the one who told me that @grace_huckinss of @WIREDD "total[ly] mischaracteriz[ed] our research" when she cited a peer-reviewed article by Kaltiala in support of the "affirm or suicide" mantra.

Screenshot of email upon request.

Aikuisten ei pitäisi ryhtyä vahvistamaan eikä hillitsemään nuorten identiteettikokeiluja, sanoo nuorisopsykiatrian professori - Tiede | HS.fi

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"The WPATH recommend an affirmative model of care , including for under 18s. Which is nothing like what we have in this country btw."

Dr Cass disagrees with you.

From the point of entry to GIDS there appears to be predominantly an affirmative, non-exploratory approach, often driven by child and parent expectations and the extent of social transition that has developed due to the delay in service provision.

Yes, speak to trans people.

But not those ones.

WPATH are a group of self appointed "experts." You don't have to be a scientist or medical professional to be a member.

When you scrape beneath the surface of who has written the guidelines it becomes clear very little is based on peer reviewed science.

Whereas places like Sweden, the U.K. and clearly Finland are reversing certain approaches based on evidence and increasing rates of detransitioners, as well as disabilities caused by 'treatment.'

Indeed, WPATH recently moved to include eunuchs as an identity, seemingly based on evidence given by individuals who run the eunuchs files, a fetish site containing stories about eunuchs. Around half of which involve minors.

https://reduxx.info/top-academic-behind-fetish-site-hosting-child-sexual-abuse-fantasy-push-to-revise-wpath-guidelines/

https://reduxx.info/nhs-scotland-apologizes-for-eunuch-gender-identity-document-leak/

https://reduxx.info/trans-health-authority-cites-castration-fetish-site-in-guidelines/

https://reduxx.info/academics-involved-with-top-transgender-health-authority-publish-paper-on-choosing-castration/

https://reduxx.info/top-trans-medical-association-collaborated-with-castration-child-abuse-fetishists/

https://reduxx.info/londons-eunuch-maker-was-a-queer-activist-in-leading-gender-diversity-organization/

And lastly:

https://reduxx.info/trans-authority-cites-pedophilic-forum-reduces-age-restrictions-for-puberty-blockers-and-genital-surgeries/

Trans Authority Cites Pedophilic Forum, Reduces Age Restrictions for ‘Puberty Blockers’ and Genital Surgeries

I see my previous post has been deleted. Maybe I was a bit too close to the truth...

Let's not make anyone feel too uncomfortable able what they are advocating

We know people flat out lie about being trans

We know people think they are trans when they are not

We know that young people are affirmed and put on a path of medicalisation at an age where they cannot reasonably be expected to understand the full implications.

Why are people so eager to push the medical route before other ptions are explored? Why is doing as much advyou can to avoid life altering medication and surgery such a terrible thing?

Of course WPATH want affirmative model of care!

Aside the previous evidence linked above, the trans health care industry is extremely lucrative in the US. As it's based on insurance.

Disabled” wasn’t a slip. It relates to popular theories that seek to explain the empirical link between transness and neuro-diversity by suggesting that these young people have reduced / limited cognitive capacity.

I have never seen a theory popular or otherwise that links trans to ‘reduced’ or ‘limited’ ‘cognitive capacity’. That is completely different to diverse cognitive function.

Again from the interim Cass report:

"It is not unusual for young people to explore both their sexuality and gender as they go through adolescence and early adulthood before developing a more settled identity."

I think you will find many people are concerned at the poor standard care that has been given in the UK. And that we will not accept 'trans affirming medical interventions have consequences' as any kind of attempt to make the poor standard of care acceptable.

Here is some more from Dr Cass's interim report.

"By the time children and young people reach GIDS, they have usually had to experience increasingly long, challenging waits to be seen. Consequently, some feel they want rapid access to physical interventions and find having a detailed assessment distressing."

This point was also highlighted in the Australian study I posted upthread, where they were seeing children come in having self-diagnosed and insisting on particular treatment paths that they wanted from discussions from 'well-meaning' people, groups etc, usually found on the internet.

And here Dr Cass is again:

"A lack of a conceptual agreement about the meaning of gender dysphoria hampers research, as well as NHS clinical service provision."

and then

"There has been research on the short-term mental health outcomes and physical side effects of puberty blockers for this cohort, but very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes."

"Much of the existing literature about natural history and treatment outcomes for gender dysphoria in childhood is based on a case-mix of predominantly birth-registered males presenting in early childhood. There is much less data on the more recent case-mix of predominantly birth-registered females presenting in early teens, particularly in relation to treatment and outcomes."

So.... Dr Cass is by now UK's leading expert in treating children and adolescents. And she points out that there is no agreed meaning of gender dysphoria AND that there is limited evidence throughout the world about the short and long term side effects of puberty blockers (needed for those males to 'pass').

The very thing you are so blithely downplaying the life limiting and sometimes life threatening side effects of the treatment of. There isn't even a consensus on what 'gender dysphoria' ever means! Let alone anywhere near enough research for any person to be 100% confident that the treatments work.

The reality is, there is very limited trusted research in these treatments even working to improve mental health.

I am sure that you Tandora know about this study that had to be corrected because they drew a conclusion that the data did not evidence.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31581798/

Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study
Branstrom & Pachankis (Aug 2020)

And Pachankis is a professor from Yale, caught out drawing conclusions where the evidence was so weak they had to retract.

In addition, clinicians have warned that mental health is just as poor in too many cases after treatments. Because patients are over the initial euphoria and still have debilitating dysphoria and fragile mental health.

I am very happy to get readers these accounts.

And you, tandora are telling us, parents of teenagers, that it is "OK.... you just don't understand."

Yeah... nah.... not buying it.

And by the way, I don't really know who you mean on this thread who would rate the WPATH so much. I merely pointed out that even Dr Bowers has admitted there is some social contagion to be explored, while YOU went off telling us all how ignorant we were and laughed at someone you deigned as 'ignorant' 'educating' you.

No. WPATH is not rated. There are so many issues before you even get to the whole Eunuch discuss of its recent statements.

(NOTE TO READERS) the drugs used for blocking puberty are known for their negative and irreversible side effects in female patients of Lupron as there is a class action still building with all the now adult women suing for lasting bone and ligament issues.

Michael Biggs has a paper on it.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33894110/

Revisiting the effect of GnRH analogue treatment on bone mineral density in young adolescents with gender dysphoria

I have another long term study to hand that I can also post. But this is interesting because he discusses one of the 24 patients in University College London Hospital.

"One British patient who started GnRHa at age 12 then experienced four broken bones by the age of 16"

Readers might also find this Swedish documentary interesting. It is a two parter.

I am posting this for the benefit of those reading along. These are the papers posted last night. People were petulantly demanding “evidence” of marginalisation of trans people. So, I take it - this is evidence.

Cherry60 mentioned yesterday that 'marginalised' has become a tired tactic. And I agree. It has become an emotionally manipulation to attempt to silence discussion.

As tandora attempted yesterday with:

"you are the one promoting harmful ignorance against a marginalised group of vulnerable people".

When this is done, quite rightly people start asking how true is this today in the UK under the current protections of the Equality Act as mentioned by ScrollingLeaves yesterday as well.

So, yes. Several of us asked for specific evidence of marginalised that is relevant to the situation today. And by logic, that means here in the UK.

So, I was interested to see what these articles were about that tandora found so convincing that they posted them for evidence.

Transgender people: health at the margins of society

^Winter, Sam, Dr ; Diamond, Milton, PhD ; Green, Jamison, PhD ; Karasic, Dan, MD ; Reed, Terry, Grad Dip Phys ; Whittle, Stephen, PhD ; Wylie, Kevan, MD
England: Elsevier Ltd^
The Lancet (British edition), 2016, Vol.388 (10042), p.390-400

Link: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27323925/

This paper discusses Gender affirming healthcare. It is to be noted that this paper also was written in 2016, so it is questionable how applicable it is considering the dramatic change of 4000+% increase in adolescent female transitioners. They are up front in then admitting that they do not know how many transgender people there are.

It goes on to discuss stigmas. It references a quantitative study from 2009 gathering opinion about transacceptance but I cannot access this. It also references 2003 survey data from the USA that included sex workers and the stigmas they face.

These reports seem to have importance to this document and have been used to set up the narrative. So, this study Transgender people: health at the margins of society seems to be based on historic and US centric data. Remember, the USA has different welfare available than the UK.

It also discusses HIV as an aspect, in a paragraph that discusses sex work. It, of course, discusses murders. Happily we know that in the UK, NO trans people were murdered in the past couple of years. That is well worth celebrating.

It discusses depression and mental health. It discusses inadequate health care.

The paper's summary:

We have noted that transgender people have a gender identity that is not congruent with their assigned sex, and that they may experience discomfort or distress where opportunities to express thatidentity are denied themor where that identity is not respected. Some transgender people seek gender affirming healthcare aimed at bodily changes to match their gender identity. Gender incongruence is more common than clinic-based studies suggest, and may be linked to biologicalfactors.
We have seen that transgender people often encounter stigma, discrimination and abuse in their lives. They are edged towards the margins of society, where they get involved in risky situations and risky behaviours. Globally they bear a heavy burden of violence, as well as of HIV risk. Some governments are taking steps to address human rights violations against transgender people.

We have seen that across much of the world transgender people have difficulty accessing or affording good quality healthcare, whether specific to their gender needs or more general in nature. The view of transgender people as mentally disordered has potentiallynegative impact on transgender people’s health and wellbeing. WHO proposals to abandon the psychopathological model are welcomed by many researchers, clinicians and transgender communities. These reforms promise empowerment for transgender people, enabling them to exercise greater autonomy in their lives. The question as to whether there should be a diagnosis for children below the age of puberty is currently the subject of debate.

By the way, here is a wonderful gem from the document:

"A growing body of scientific evidence can now be brought to bear in the long-running debate on the degree to which biological factors (especially hormonal and genetic), rather than factors such as parenting or social environment, may contribute to the development of gender identity."

This is surprising. Neither the Tavistock nor Dr Cass seem to know this information because surely this statement is saying there is a biological factor that can then be used for diagnosis???

However, I look forward to tandora's opinion on how this paper is relevant to the current situation in the UK.

Re biological evidence for ‘being trans’

I seem to remember that the evidence for any findings of there being a biological correlation with feelings of incongruence between gender and sex have not been differentiated from being markers for being gay.

We know people may be influenced or pressured to feel more accepted as trans than they would be as gay.

Second, have the studies got adequate controls : you would need hundreds of children to be scanned in early childhood, then when they are older.

Third, you would need to know whether any change in facts found in a scan of an older person were caused by environmental factors such as hormones, other medications and life style.

Thanks for posting this, OP.

I’ve just been reading this heartbreaking thread by the mother of a teenage girl:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4717419-dd-ran-away-to-be-with-trans-lover-and-refuses-to-return

Transphobia-Based Violence, Depression, and Anxiety in Transgender Women: The Role of Body Satisfaction

Klemmer, Cary L.; Arayasirikul, Sean; Raymond, Henry F.
Journal of interpersonal violence. Volume 36:Issue 5/6 (2021); pp 2633-2655

First published online March 11, 2018

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29528801/

This one is locked behind a paywall. I wonder if Tandora has read it and could tell us in context how this 2013 US study is applicable to the UK today.

Abstract

Psychological processes may mediate the relationship between minority stress and mental health though limited data exist showing this pathway among trans women. Trans women’s degree of satisfaction with their body is associated with mental health outcomes. This study used a model of minority stress to explore for indirect effects on the association between transphobia-based victimization and anxiety and depression through one’s degree of body satisfaction. Analysis also explored for racial differences. Transgender women (N = 233) were recruited in 2013 using respondent-driven sampling.

Sociodemographics, transphobia-based victimization experiences such as having been physically abused, body satisfaction, and mental health were measured. Analyses assessed for direct and indirect associations while controlling for gender confirmation therapies (i.e., cross-sex hormone therapy and gender confirmation surgeries) and racial identity; 57% reported depression and 42.1% reported anxiety diagnoses. Participants averaged nearly three of six assessed violence experiences. More than 20% reported low body satisfaction.

Contrary to authors’ expectations, those reporting African American and Other racial identity experienced less transphobia-based violence than whites. Transphobia-based violence was significantly associated with anxiety, depression, and body satisfaction. Body satisfaction was associated with mental health diagnoses. Bootstrapping revealed significant indirect and total effects. Body satisfaction mediated the relationship between transphobia-based violence and mental health. Clinical intervention that promotes body satisfaction including access to gender confirmation therapies, especially hormone therapy, may prevent negative mental health outcomes among trans women. Individual intervention, however, is not a panacea for structural discrimination. Attention to structural interventions that reduce gender minority stressors including transphobia-based violence is necessary.

(Note: I have added paragraphs as otherwise it is a wall of script)

I also note that maybe someone with full access could check whether 'Clinical intervention' includes extensive explorative mental health therapy. It does not look like it.

"Self-reported access to health care, communicable diseases, violence and perception of legal status among online transgender identifying sex workers in the UK."

Steele, Sarah; Taylor, V; Vannoni, M; Hernandez-Salazar, E; McKee, M; Amato-Gauci, A; Stuckler, D; Semenza, J

September 2020

Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7567780/

This paper is specific to sex workers. At least it is UK relevant. It was collected by an opt in text message 12 item questionnaire. Respondents picked from 'BirchPlace' which I have discovered through my child friendly internet filter is a site for UK TS/TV escorts. The questionnaire was not downloading for me, strangely.

The sample number was 53.

It is interesting to read that this group despite it being said they were involved in high risk activities, in the past year only 9 reported positive for Gonorrhea, and 9 for chlamydia, 3 for Syphilis and 1 for HIV/AIDS. Now of course, that was just testing for that year. If they didn't bother testing (eg. they already have these conditions) or are these yearly checks to monitor their conditions, it is not mentioned.

Most (85%) of the 53 said they did not use IV drugs and only 2 of them said they did. This is good news.

This paper made a statement that I have not been able to check because I cannot access the paper with the evidence. That is:

"Globally, TGISWs experience a higher prevalence of HIV and sexually transmitted infections than the general population or other sex workers"

So, are they again leveraging countries with very poor practices and health care to make their point? I suspect so to be honest.

Conclusion

"Taken together, our results show that despite access to publicly funded healthcare services, which offer free sexual health services and communicable disease treatment to all in the UK irrespective of immigration status, nine respondents reported feeling unable to access needed health care in the last year. All but one of these individuals identifies being a British or European Union (EU) citizen in their nationality, hence we can rule out the impact of overseas migrant charging on dissuading access to health care. However, there are many other reasons why need is not met, including access to facilities where they are needed, and with convenient opening hours."

"Only 62% of our respondents identified feeling comfortable accessing a doctor, and therefore it is critical for future qualitative research to explore why TGISWs in the UK might feel unable or unwilling to access health care. Past studies show apprehension with accessing care amongst the general population is hugely varied, and therefore it is critical to explore TGISW' feelings about access both quantitatively and qualitatively to inform interventions to improve access. We note that access to health care is vital not only because the respondents identified experiencing sexual infections and high-levels of risky behaviour but also because 40% of respondents reported that they have been threatened by a client while working or felt physically intimidated to do something they did not want to do. These results corroborate a previous study of internet-based sex workers (n = 240) which found that about half had experienced crime in their work, including threatening and harassing texts/calls/emails, verbal abuse and removal of condom. Forty three % of respondents reported that they would hesitate to contact law enforcement if needed."

Anyway, this paper does discuss some of the issues which is good to see. It even attempts to look at context in some kind of comparison, more to remove a potential weakness though.

"Hence we can rule out the impact of overseas migrant charging on dissuading access to health care."

Still it is there.

Does this study in anyway then make comparisons to other sex workers? Not really. It tried to leverage global statistics (I cannot check) in as a broad brush comparison.

Again, I don't recall any poster deny that there are many challenges for trans people. And I believe on this feminist board we are quite familiar with the challenges faced by sex workers.

What I have questioned, and others too, is how 'marginalised' is this group compared to other groups in the UK? And on this thread has 'marginalised' been used as an emotional manipulation tool to attempt to shame posters for their discussion points?

This study doesn't really add any extra nuance to the discussion, in my opinion. However, I am open to hearing why it was included and other's perceptions of its relevance.

"Help-seeking among lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender victims/survivors of domestic violence and abuse: The impacts of cisgendered heteronormativity and invisibility"

Donovan, Catherine ; Barnes, Rebecca
South Melbourne, VIC November 11, 2019

Link: journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1440783319882088

This study is also behind a paywall. Tandora have you read it in full? Can you discuss it? Can you tell us which study 'qualitative data from a mixed-methods UK' refers to, please?

Abstract

Despite growing research into domestic violence and abuse (DVA) in lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or trans (LGB and/or T) people’s relationships, LGB and/or T people remain largely invisible in DVA policy and practice. Research evidence indicates that they primarily seek help from privatised sources such as counsellors/therapists and friends. The gap in knowledge about LGB and/or T victims/survivors’ help-seeking reflects and reinforces the success of neoliberal trends in privatising social problems by promoting self-care and individual responsibility. Using qualitative data from a mixed-methods UK study, this article offers an ecological analysis of LGB and/or T victims/survivors’ help-seeking decisions and barriers, demonstrating how cisgendered heteronormativity and LGBT invisibility permeate help-seeking at individual, interpersonal and socio-cultural levels. The conclusion argues for LGBT DVA to be recognised as a social problem rather than a private trouble. Recommendations are offered for necessary steps towards better recognising and supporting LGB and/or T victims/survivors.

This is an issue that we know about. Maybe Tandora can again tell us how this compares to the DVA that is experienced by females in general.

To this end: This is the final one

"HIV risk and preventive interventions in transgender women sex workers"

Poteat, Tonia, Dr ; Wirtz, Andrea L, MHS ; Radix, Anita, MD ; Borquez, Annick, PhD ; Silva-Santisteban, Alfonso, MD ; Deutsch, Madeline B, MD ; Khan, Sharful Islam, PhD ; Winter, Sam, PhD ; Operario, Don, PhD

The Lancet (British edition), 2015, Vol.385 (9964), p.274-286

Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4320978/

This paper seems to be trying to frame the prevalence of HIV against the 'general adult population'? It includes a study on transitioned male prisoners who were regularly engaging in homosexual sex in prison and again another two studies regarding sex workers.

I feel to go over this again, will just be repeating myself. I can see no benefit in it. Maybe the poster who posted the study would like to add their comments as to the relevance to the general trans community in UK vs other groups of the population here.

My expectation though is that all these studies were posted as examples of 'marginalisation'. And they are examples of 'marginalisation'.

Again to repeat. What I have questioned, and others too, is how 'marginalised' is this group compared to other groups in the UK? And on this thread has 'marginalised' been used as an emotional manipulation tool to attempt to shame posters for their discussion points?

How do any of these papers fit into a poster's attempts to frame others discussion points as being based on "you are the one promoting harmful ignorance against a marginalised group of vulnerable people".

ie. Is this poster's attempts to frame discussion as 'ignorant', 'harmful', and even 'transphobic' (I believe that one has been flung out too) valid, or is it just emotional manipulation.

And these studies, were they even read before adding them to the thread? Or were they quickly googled and plonked on with no context in the continued attempt to frame discussion negatively?

Helleofabore

Thanks for taking the time to go through these links.

I very much suspect that Tandora hasn't actually read them and I also am struggling to see how they demonstrate that trans people are the most marginalised to the degree that we should stop talking about the harms that affirmation does to young bodies.

Perhaps Tandora could explain?

Yes, life

I think it was just the usual plonking down to at least reframe the discussion, if not silence the discussion completely.

I am happy though as always to be shown to be wrong.

Helleofabore · Today 13:11

Thank you for breaking these down. I gather you may be a scientist. Anyway, what a help this is.

Re:
but also because 40% of respondents reported that they have been threatened by a client while working or felt physically intimidated to do something they did not want to do.

Does anyone know the prevalence of this as it relates to women who are prostituted?

These results corroborate a previous study of internet-based sex workers (n = 240) which found that about half had experienced crime in their work, including threatening and harassing texts/calls/emails, verbal abuse and removal of condom

As this sentence was about “internet- based sex workers” I was wondering about how a “removal of condom” might be involved? Or is just a mistake in the writing?

As to the other crimes in that paragraph, again I wonder how women have also been affected?

It could mean that they are booked from the internet??? I wonder.

I am also posting this for readers as well to give context to this discussion.

These statistics are from the Cass Report but they are findable elsewhere and they follow the trend in other countries as well.

In 2009, 15 Adolescent female patients were referred to GIDS and 2 Children. That is 17.

In 2016, 1071 Adolescent female patients and 138 Children. That is 1209.

This represents a 7012% increase.

In 2009, 24 Adolescent male patients were referred to GIDS and 10 Children.
That is 34.

In 2016, 426 Adolescent male patients and 131 Children. That is 557.

This represents a 1538% increase.

It has gone from Female : male ratio in 2009 being 0.5 : 1 to 2.1 : 1 in 2016.

And readers, the numbers have continued to climb in that same trajectory in the years since 2016. This is why worldwide there is so much concern.

This is why some heavily invested people wish to continue to downplay the potential of social contagion. A good thing that clinicians are ignoring those people and have started to finally look for answers.

No Debate prevented discussion about this teenaged female cohort but not any more.

When you look at people, posters, who wish to stifle discussion, ask yourself, who exactly benefits from that? In this instance, did those female patients benefit from discussion being framed as 'transphobic' and shut down when people started to raise the alarms? No fucking way.

Instead, we have had an even greater push by ideological believers that clinicians should only follow affirming only treatments.

Even Dr Cass said (as I quote up thread):

From the point of entry to GIDS there appears to be predominantly an affirmative, non-exploratory approach, often driven by child and parent expectations and the extent of social transition that has developed due to the delay in service provision.

So a note to you when you are presented with evidence that certain treatment plans work 'best', check the date of any research. If it is prior to even 2015 but certainly 2016 when the alarms were starting to clang, it is likely not to include the change in demographics. Check those demographics EVERY time too. Even recent studies. Check the date of the data they are using. Check the demographics closely.

We often get people post a cluster of 50+ studies from a page from a prominent university in the USA as some kind of trophy 'gotcha'. Not one of those studies address the issues faced by this new dominant cohort. It is just as notable that there are no detransitioner statistics that are appropriately collected. (These were considered transphobic to discuss too!! Once!!! )

We are now lucky in that studies will start coming through. But it is too late for many female patients.

Thank you again Helleobafore.

Mumsnet HQ in my opinion you were wrong to move this important information about a potentially dangerous new element in our children’s, grandchildren’s, relative’s and friend’s lives away from a main line thread where a wide range of people might have looked if they chose.

Thanks so much for your diligence @Helleofabore , really informative.

Agree @ScrollingLeaves I wish HQ would stop trying to sheepdog this important discussion into a small corner. Surely 'Let Women Speak' should apply on mumsnet as much as anywhere?!

I just need to make an addition here.

This paper seems to be trying to frame the prevalence of HIV against the 'general adult population'? It includes a study on transitioned male prisoners who were regularly engaging in homosexual sex in prison and again another two studies regarding sex workers.

I think this is an issue. I am surprised that this was allowed to be honest. But hey, I have seen some pretty flawed studies of late.

The appropriate comparator for this study would be framing the prevalence of HIV against the homosexual male population, or even just all males, and maybe even better - against the homosexual male sex worker population.

It becomes meaningless to make such a comparison with the 'rest of the general adult population'? What for? What is the significance? Why compare people who are engaged in the highest risk activities with a population that don't take any risks?

To make the result look more dramatic? I don't know. I could not work it out really but maybe I missed something. I don't believe it added to the study. It could have been left out it was such a useless comparison.

Does that population under study need unique care and protection? Yes. Of course it does.