This is very important to read for all parents

[Yingyamgwingwen]

I know it's the daily mail but this is very important about a man who talks about his journey. It's really good reporting for once! It's about his trans journey and de transition. Counselling and mental health support is vital for all..

I'm de-transitioning and blame 'woke' culture for influencing teens mol.im/a/11691635 via dailym.ai/android

Oh dear Lord. And now they are “trans identifying people”.

. So you assume that they must be ill, or traumatised , or disabled etc.

No, it is not a case of assuming. This is evidence based.

I did not say disabled by the way.

They're people who identify as trans aren't they? What's 'oh dear lord' about that?

This was me too Wellie. From early teens (when I told my mum I wanted to be a boy) to mid 30s. And yes, we were going to adopt.

Then everything changed. I know numerous others just like that. A whole mothers group !

The dismissal of children and young adults decisions as ‘it is ok. Just different!’ seems to be glossing over the reality to me.

Didn’t one of the Nordic countries have a fertile specialist comment that the fastest increasing category was women in their late 20s who had detransitioned after testosterone treatment seeking answers as to why they weren’t able to fall pregnant?

Right so here you are saying it’s evidence based that trans people are all ill and traumatised, and the other people on the thread are claiming there is no evidence that trans people are marginalised 🙄.

lots of trans people are struggling with mental health issues, and trauma , because trans people are an extremely marginalised and persecuted group of people.

That doesn’t mean that mental illness and trauma is what drives trans people to have mastectomies.

Would you call a gay person a “gay-identified” person? Or a lesbian a “lesbian-identified” person. Probs not, cos it would sound a bit rude right? Perhaps homophobic. As if you were implying it was kind of a pretence.. 🤔

Do you have that evidence that trans people are more marginalised than sub-groups of women and children?

Because really. It is easy to claim that many groups might be marginalised, but in comparison to which other groups? And how?

You really do seem to just throw stuff against a wall to see if anything sticks. You post unevidenced emotionally manipulative claims and wonder why people push back.

So you're now adding 'persecuted' to the list of claims you make about trans identifying people, still with nothing to back that up. Not credible.

I did notice ‘persecuted’ was added.

A bit more emotional manipulation there.

Absolutely.

Some trans people
are gay people who were made to feel something was wrong with them. This little boy/now girl had an abusive anti gay mother.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIkLNsRtas

This man who is suing the NHS for rushing him through gender surgery without enough counselling regrets it and feels that really he was gay but had not formerly come to terms with that.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=e3eA0vSHeak

Basically, Tandora I don’t believe nature is creating child after child who, as he or she begins to grow up, is going to need radical surgery to cut off parts of their body and create similar replacement parts, and need lifelong medicine because they were ‘born trans’.

That is not to say I don’t believe that people may feel their body is all wrong and they wish they did not have it.

Or that some boys take more pleasure in typically feminine things or girls in more typically masculine things.

Create parts similar to the other sex’s genitalia.

Would you call a gay person a “gay-identified” person? Or a lesbian a “lesbian-identified” person. Probs not, cos it would sound a bit rude right? Perhaps homophobic. As if you were implying it was kind of a pretence..

This is a thread about detransition. What is more rude to those that believe that being trans is an immutable underlying truth about a person, to describe detransitioners as people who were trans and stopped being trans, or to describe them only as people who identified as trans, leaving open the possibility that it could still be immutable and that person was mistaken?

Of course for those of us who don't actually believe there is such a thing as a man in a woman's body, what does 'being trans' actually mean? People who say they identify as trans is a concrete category that can be identified at least.

Lord only knows I don’t have the time for this. There is a tonne of literature.

Transgender people: health at the margins of society
Winter, Sam, Dr ; Diamond, Milton, PhD ; Green, Jamison, PhD ; Karasic, Dan, MD ; Reed, Terry, Grad Dip Phys ; Whittle, Stephen, PhD ; Wylie, Kevan, MD
England: Elsevier Ltd
The Lancet (British edition), 2016, Vol.388 (10042), p.390-400

Transphobia-Based Violence, Depression, and Anxiety in Transgender Women: The Role of Body Satisfaction
Klemmer, Cary L.; Arayasirikul, Sean; Raymond, Henry F.
Sage Publications
Journal of interpersonal violence. Volume 36:Issue 5/6 (2021); pp 2633-2655

Self-reported access to health care, communicable diseases, violence and perception of legal status among online transgender identifying sex workers in the UK.
Steele, Sarah; Taylor, V; Vannoni, M; Hernandez-Salazar, E; McKee, M; Amato-Gauci, A; Stuckler, D; Semenza, J
Elsevier;Public health

Help-seeking among lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender victims/survivors of domestic violence and abuse: The impacts of cisgendered heteronormativity and invisibility
Donovan, Catherine ; Barnes, Rebecca
South Melbourne, VIC: SAGE Publications
Journal of sociology (Melbourne, Vic.), 2020, Vol.56 (4), p.554-570

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Adolescent School Victimization: Implications for Young Adult Health and Adjustment
Russell, Stephen T. ; Ryan, Caitlin ; Toomey, Russell B. ; Diaz, Rafael M. ; Sanchez, Jorge
Received on October 6, 2010, Accepted on December 14, 2010 Oxford, UK: Blackwell Publishing Ltd
The Journal of school health, 2011, Vol.81 (5), p.223-230

HIV risk and preventive interventions in transgender women sex workers
Poteat, Tonia, Dr ; Wirtz, Andrea L, MHS ; Radix, Anita, MD ; Borquez, Annick, PhD ; Silva-Santisteban, Alfonso, MD ; Deutsch, Madeline B, MD ; Khan, Sharful Islam, PhD ; Winter, Sam, PhD ; Operario, Don, PhD
England: Elsevier Ltd
The Lancet (British edition), 2015, Vol.385 (9964), p.274-286

Right. You don’t know what being trans means. You don’t think it’s an actual thing.

Can you imagine how that sounds to a trans person? And yet you try to claim you are not transphobic?

Okay, so let's go with what actual thing you think trans is. Describe it if you can. Or if you can't, let's go back to the detransitioners.

Were they actually trans and now they're not? Or were they mistaken and were never actually trans?

I don't know about your particular idea of the 'actually trans', but for a lot of believers I think this question causes fundamental difficulties, and that's why they try very hard not to hear anything detransitioners say. Either you have to admit some people are mistaken, or you have to admit that whatever gender identity is it can change. And either of those are a major problem if you're an ideology that is proposing major medical interventions on kids because 'they know their identity when they're 3'.

Being trans is an issue of identity - I've seen many transactivists define it as someone who doesn't identify with the gender they were 'assigned' at birth. So it's not at all insulting to describe such people as trans identifying.

The idea that there's some separate group of humans who are born trans is an absurd ideology that I don't believe in.

Can you tell us which group of people have been driving the over riding narrative that to be accepted as a ‘man’, that female transitioners need to suffer potentially life limiting double mastectomies and potentially life shortening removal of their ovaries?

While male transitioners keep their penises 90-95% of the time? And some male transitioners keep their beards as well! I mean there is Alex Drummond telling us women that by them fixing their car one minute and then slipping into a dress the next they are ‘broadening the bandwidth of women’. They even go into schools and tell girls that it is ok to be a lesbian, just like Alex is.

So tell us, have you ever considered why this is so? Why are young female transitioners being presented with this ‘ideal’ that requires such damaging surgery, yet males can simply keep their penis and their beard and be celebrated?

So no! I think it is ignorant (that word you love to throw around) to dismiss these operations the way that you do. You are clearly fully accepting that these teens and young women are fully understanding their decisions despite the rising number of detransitioners.

“So you assume that they must be ill, or traumatised , or disabled etc.”

Isn’t that slip in of ‘disabled’ just another addition for emotional manipulation?

We KNOW many teens are ‘traumatised’ and have co-morbidities. It is well documented. The % of those females registered with gender clinics with comorbidities and having history of trauma has been recognised as being much higher than the general population.

We also know that due to the insistence of affirming only treatment (based on the Dutch Protocol but lacking the extensive mental health therapy and exploratory therapy) that those comorbidities are not treated.

You glibly told us you supposedly know about the Bell vs Tavistock case. Did you listen to it? Did you read it?

Did you know that the authors of the Dutch Protocol have stated that the current cohort of young female transitioners are different and that there is no evidence that that treatment is appropriate for them? Happy to find the link.

So yes. The likelihood of a teenaged female transitioner having a comorbidity and / or trauma history is higher than the general public.

And rather than treating these comorbidities and trauma, because of ideological politicking, those young female patients are being transitioned under ‘affirming only.’

Clinicians around the world are raising alarms. Children are self diagnosing and then demanding treatment paths on their very first visit. instead of the expert being left to diagnose without that pre-influence. it is discussed here.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

There is a great deal to be concerned about in the treatment for the young female cohort. Dismissing double mastectomies and having ovaries removed as ”the reason is - because they are trans. You cannot relate to being trans, therefore you can’t understand it, because it is something so radically unfamiliar and different to your own experience.” is showing that it is you who seems to not have a depth of understanding around these issues.

And this list of studies is for what?

And really, if you don’t have time for this, why are you doing this?

what is your investment here?

It wasn’t relevant to me until my adult son came out unexpectedly as transgender. If that happens to you, you will probably find it very worrying. I’m very concerned about the influences on him, and as it happens, to my surprise, it’s having a big impact on my mental health. I hope he’s OK and that I’m wrong to be concerned, but all my parental instincts are that he’s involved in something with cult-like characteristics.

Perhaps we must simply disagree.

There is a huge U S based industry in medicine and academia that needs trans people. I cannot read all those articles now but only look at the titles.

HIV risk in trans sex workers - what is this to do with children being born trans? Or whether those trans prostituted people had experienced trauma or problems earlier in their lives? Or why they are more marginalised than trafficked prostituted women?

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and transgender adolescent school victimisation.
Are the adolescents who may be questioning their feelings about their gender more marginalised and victimised than the homosexual adolescents? Is there any reason to know the gender questioning adolescents might not have been gay too?

Transphobia-Based Violence, Depression, and Anxiety in Transgender Women: The Role of Body Satisfaction:

That is sweeping a lot together. It seems likely there might be a good deal of body dissatisfaction in someone trying to do the impossible with their body but why are you citing this? Does this show transgender women are just exercising their choice to be ‘different’, that they were just born trans, and that they are more victimised and violently treated than others with bodies they are satisfied or dissatisfied with ( say disabled or infirm people) ?

Help-seeking among lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender victims/survivors of domestic violence and abuse: The impacts of cisgendered heteronormativity and invisibility

I can see all these groups may have difficulties being taken seriously by the police compared to women, but in all truth women have a terrible time too in abusive relationships and with stalking. Women are also killed in very large numbers, and raped and sexually abused with impunity. This has nothing to say either about whether there were reasons behind gender dysphoria in the earlier lives of these trans people .

than say disabled or infirm people.

Good night Tandora

I can see all these groups may have difficulties being taken seriously by the police compared to women, but in all truth women have a terrible time too in abusive relationships and with stalking

Straight women have their own difficulties being taken seriously by police with da, stalking, sex offences. I can think of many more women murdered by partner or ex partner specifically because police didn’t take the threat seriously or failed to follow their own guidelines than I can think of trans. Of all the woman murdered in da 2009-2018 - 50% of the men who killed them were known to have a history of violence against women.

Cherry it is extremely insulting- I have already pointed out why. There is no need to say trans identified, you just say “trans”. You don’t get to define what is insulting to a trans person.

People were petulantly demanding “evidence” of marginalisation of trans people. There is a TONNE of evidence on this, this is just a flavour.

My investment in this is that it disgusts me to see so much ignorance,
misinformation,
misunderstanding and prejudice against trans people on mumsnet.
I read something, I try to call it out , and then, against my better judgement , I get dragged into responding to you all.