This is very important to read for all parents

[Yingyamgwingwen]

I know it's the daily mail but this is very important about a man who talks about his journey. It's really good reporting for once! It's about his trans journey and de transition. Counselling and mental health support is vital for all..

I'm de-transitioning and blame 'woke' culture for influencing teens mol.im/a/11691635 via dailym.ai/android

I am familiar with many. There’s nothing wrong with transitioning and there’s nothing wrong with detransitioning and nothing wrong with discussing either phenomenon.

You are not alarmed by the horrors of the detransitioning stories?

The fact that the majority of detransitioners are saying that they didn't receive adequate evaluation before transitioning -

bigthink.com/health/detransitioners-study-evaluations/

The fact that a young detransitioner in Canada is seeking elective suicide. www.westernstandard.news/news/alberta-transgender-wants-maid-after-sexual-reassignment-surgery-goes-sour/article_002cfcf0-974b-11ed-bb83-376c9cc7f373.html

Is this something else which is alarmist and transphobic and shouldn't be talked about?

Nothing wrong with detransitioning? ! Tell that to the people whose lives have been ruined.

Section 28 didn't put young autistic people on a pathway to fucking infertility and sexual dysfunction.

He calls himself an internet personality and he’s got 775k followers on Instagram he has made a name for himself doing things that are purely to keep him relevant. He only went to South Korea to teach English and then decided that he would have countless surgeries to turn himself into Jimin everything he does is just for the clout and I highly doubt he would be doing any of this if he wasn’t making money from it he’s done a few songs about Korea he has been doing all
this since 2018. It’s exactly the same as Rodrigo Alves who made a name for himself
having countless surgeries to turn himself into a human Ken doll and when he ran out of surgeries to have he decided that he was a trans woman and changed his name to Jessica and is now keeping himself relevant having countless surgies to make himself look like a woman where do they draw the line when do they stop doing things purely to make money and not because they actually believe they where born in the wrong body.

Both men (men they are) seem to have mental health issues. Well-adjusted, happy people do not have countless surgeries to completely change their appearance just to be “relevant”.

They were both perfectly nice looking young men but they became convinced they were not ok as they are, presumably involving some kind of dysmorphia, and must radically alter their appearance surgically.

If they just wanted attention they could dance naked in the street.

Have you had a double mastectomy?

Because hearing the issues from women who have had double mastectomies is pretty tough to hear.

Plus, there are female transitioners who now report they were never told explicitly or didn’t realize that having their breasts cut off would mean they would not be able to breastfeed. Like Freddy McConnell, who was a university graduate at the time of their operation. Who has now had two children and been responsible for helping to set policies for NHS trans pregnancy care.

And from detransitioners who then realize they cannot breast feed.

And have no sensation in their breasts and nipples for sexual pleasure.

Tough decisions for young people to make. And in some countries teens as young as 14 have had the operation. For gender dysphoria.

And as far as removing ovaries, there is research still underway as far as I know on investigating the connection between loss of ovaries at very young age and very early onset dementia .

A review of patient data for mortality for trans people recently stated that there is a considerable lack of information about the long term effects of treatments because of the young age of the transitioners.

I am happy to post a link when I find it again.

The consistent stories from detransitioners is that they couldn’t imagine the reality of those operations and the side effects were significant. And not discussed. In fact, some detransitioners (enough with the same experience) were told not to discuss the negative side effects with other trans people.

Who does it benefit to dismiss teenagers and young adults making such decisions as “there is nothing wrong with having a mastectomy or being infertile if you don’t want breasts and you don’t want biological children.”?

These decisions are being made by young vulnerable females. And the enormity seems to be dismissed.

Tandora · Today 20:42
I’ll just say simply this: there is nothing wrong with having a mastectomy or being infertile if you don’t want breasts and you don’t want biological children. You don’t need to relate , some people are different to you. Difference is ok.

Don’t you think there is a danger of deciding on this course too young when you may not have realised that the real reasons for your dysphoria were not really related to gender at all but co-morbidities?

For example there can a correlation between past trauma including sexual abuse or being a child in care, autism, homophobia from family or friends, and peer pressure.

Then what if such a person was not fully aware of what could go wrong with surgeries or how you may feel far from well?

You speak as though having your breasts and womb removed are normal acts, but really they aren’t. You say “ difference is ok”.

The difference you are speaking about isn’t the equivalent difference between one person and another that you find in day height, or looks, personality, culture, religion, young or old, etc

You seem to be referring to cutting off body parts as though it is the same as changing the style of clothes by cutting off sleeves or hem length.

This is about Keira Bell. I am guessing you did not know about her story Tandora before you posted this?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tQr6WZXHSQ

This is an extremely interesting account by a detransitioner describing the influences she felt contributed to her feelings of being trans and what changed her mind. In her case peer pressure played a part. Lucky she had not gone down the route of surgery.
lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?s=r

You think I don’t know about Keira Bell?!

I posted aibu. And the thread has been moved.... 🤷

there is nothing wrong with having a mastectomy or being infertile if you don’t want breasts and you don’t want biological children.”?

There’s nothing wrong with a mastectomy if that’s what you really want and you know 100% what every single consequence will be (including loss of sensation during sex and inability to breast feed) and are happy with that.

But who the hell knows whether they won’t want breasts for the rest of their life when they’re a teenager?

Many many teenage girls are embarrassed and self conscious of their breasts not least because they draw comment and behaviour from men that can be painful, unpleasant, and scary to handle.

Who actually knows whether they want biological children when they’re a teen or even in their 20s? So many, many people change their mind.

You speak as though having your breasts and womb removed are normal acts, but really they aren’t

What I said is- it’s ok to be different. Not everybody has to be “normal”, it doesn’t mean they are ill or disgusting or traumatised. Some people are just different to you. That’s ok.

Ridiculous. You should ask Mumsnet why.

All parents need to know about what is happening and the risk of social transition to children.

This is not simply a feminism issue.

Who actually knows whether they want biological children when they’re a teen or even in their 20s? So many, many people change their mind.

They won't sterilise women who just don't want children.

Only the ones who say they don't feel like women.

You really cannot seem to post without showing your rather entrenched prejudices about what you think other people know or believe.

Your posts are consistently showing that you don’t seem to be well read as you want everyone to believe you are. You seem to have a narrow viewpoint.

You seem to resort to using hyperbole a bit too much, such as ‘stoking up fear and hatred’.

Quite honestly, trying to dismiss people’s knowledge as coming from reading the ‘daily mail’ is not quite the zinger you obviously think it is.

But crack on. Discussion is good.

But it isn't 'a fact', as others have explained. You can't just state something as fact without backing it up.

Only thing with it being moved is it loses the votes
When posts are moved, wish they kept the results.
It was 50 / 50 exactly just before moving, 50% YANBU, 50% YABU

So are you actually trying to claim trans people aren’t marginalised?

We made the decision to move this thread as the title isn't an AIBU question and the subject matter is a better fit within Sex and Gender discussions.

This may be disappointing news but we're walking the line here trying to allow the debate to happen.

You speak as though having your breasts and womb removed are normal acts, but really they aren’t

What I said is- it’s ok to be different. Not everybody has to be “normal”, it doesn’t mean they are ill or disgusting or traumatised. Some people are just different to you. That’s ok.

It is ok to be different. What has that to do with people’s reasons for concern?

You seem to be arguing that even if someone wants to cut up their body without good reason that’s ok that is just being different. It does not mean they are ill or traumatised.

But often they really are ill traumatised and depressed, or autistic, or in care, or made to feel awful for being non conforming, before making that decision, and may be just as depressed if not more so afterwards too.

That first paragraph was what Tandora was replying.

Please could you explain exactly what line you are walking?

Tandora since you made the claim that it's a fact that trans people are marginalised you should provide evidence of that fact. The quality of your evidence will obviously impact the credibility of your argument.

Please show evidence how trans people are marginalised compared to how different groups of women and children are marginalised.

It is all very easy to claim they are marginalised, but compared to which other groups.

Yes. Trans identifying people are not marginalised, they have all the protections in law they need to lead normal lives and even extra freedoms not given to others. You've yet to explain how you believe they're marginalised.

I remember clearly stating in my late teens that I would never have my own children because so many children need adoptive parents. At this age, I did not value my own fertility. By the time I was in my late 20s of course the urge to have children was overwhelming and I was lucky to have two. I know a couple of friends who have been unable to have children and their grief is profound. I cannot imagine how much worse it must be to want children and know that in your teens you willingly gave up your fertility for an ideology in which you no longer believe.

You seem to be arguing that even if someone wants to cut up their body without good reason

But this is exactly it- you say “without good reason”, because you cannot understand the reason why a trans person might have a mastectomy. the reason is - because they are trans. You cannot relate to being trans, therefore you can’t understand it, because it is something so radically unfamiliar and different to your own experience. So you assume that they must be ill, or traumatised , or disabled etc.

@ScrollingLeaves