This is very important to read for all parents

[Yingyamgwingwen]

I know it's the daily mail but this is very important about a man who talks about his journey. It's really good reporting for once! It's about his trans journey and de transition. Counselling and mental health support is vital for all..

I'm de-transitioning and blame 'woke' culture for influencing teens mol.im/a/11691635 via dailym.ai/android

“Disabled” wasn’t a slip. It relates to popular theories that seek to explain the empirical link between transness and neuro-diversity by suggesting that these young people have reduced / limited cognitive capacity.

yes , I read Tavistock and bell. Both judgements. The high court judgement was garbage and luckily was thrown out on appeal.

most of what you say here is so twisted and erroneous it doesn’t really warrant a response.

I think it is ignorant (that word you love to throw around) to dismiss these operations the way that you do

What operations are you referring to and how have I “dismissed” them? I haven’t dismissed anything. Other people have referred to people “cutting up their bodies” for “no good reason”. I have simply pointed out the judgement and bias behind the statement “no good reason”.

“A lot of believers”.

🤯🤯😱😡

Defining trans is quite simple. What is hard is understanding it, particularly because it is a form of difference that challenges so many deeply engrained ideas/ norms/ assumptions that feel very personal to most people.

I have no problem discussing detransition. It is rare but happens. People detransition for a range of reasons , it doesn’t necessarily mean they are no longer trans. Many detransitioned people still refer to themselves as trans. Some people decide they aren’t trans after all .

Do I think gender identity can change? Yes. mostly it doesn’t. For the overwhelming majority of people it’s something that’s pretty innate/ stable / resistant to change. But I don’t believe that is absolute for everyone.

I mean, I am loving the projection in most of your posts. I am sure that I am not the only one who is.

Your first group of posts on the thread were accusing people of ignorance and you have continued that. Yet, you consistently shown that you are the ignorant one. You seem to do little but show scorn yet claim to have so much knowledge.

You scorned the statement of the President of WPATH as if you knew more than a surgeon, who is a transitioned male, who has been operating on trans people for years !!!

The President of WPATH FFS!

Plus you also seem to have very little knowledge of the commonalities that teenaged female trans people share. And yet are very keen to dismiss how medical treatment has let them down.

You posted that a double mastectomy and having ovaries removed are just ‘different’!

Do you even understand the issues with these surgeries for older female patients let alone ones so young? Yet you accuse others of ‘spreading ignorance and misinformation’!

No big deal. ‘They are just trans and you don’t understand’ you say. Do you understand how many of us on this thread are parents and understand these female teenagers and young adults very well? You are posting on a parenting site after all.

Do you honestly believe your glib posts about double mastectomies and ovary removal are supposed to show that others posting are the misinformed and ignorant ones?

It has been very clear from the outset that it is you who has the deep and entrenched prejudices.

So, while you think you are here convincing others with your supposedly insightful posts, I doubt you are achieving anything like that.

However, you are showing readers just how little substance your own arguments have besides your own prejudicial attacks on Mumnetters and simply thinking because you repeat ‘ignorant’ so often that it might actually stick eventually.

If think this is doing trans people any favours, then I would suggest you are failing.

Unsurprisingly, the petulant person on this thread appears to you.

So, you plopped down some studies with no dissemination at all. Why?
Where did you get them from? Have you even read them?

And how do they prove that one sub set of the population is MORE marginalised than other sub sets of the population . That is after all the crux of your claim.

Just saying ‘marginalised’ over and over without comparison is meaningless. Hence why “People were petulantly demanding “evidence” of marginalisation of trans people.”

If you are not ignorant, tell us how each of those links prove your claims.

“Disabled” wasn’t a slip. It relates to popular theories that seek to explain the empirical link between transness and neuro-diversity by suggesting that these young people have reduced / limited cognitive capacity.

How about you tell us then what you think the significance is of the higher representation of young children, teens and young adults, particularly female, with these comorbid conditions in those people seeking to transition.

Do you disagree that they are over represented in that group?

And can you then explain what you seem to believe is the standard of care for these adolescents? What are their treatment options in your belief vs what has been reported?

“most of what you say here is so twisted and erroneous it doesn’t really warrant a response.”

Yeah… more projection I think.

Crack on.

“What operations are you referring to and how have I “dismissed” them?”

Here :

I’ll just say simply this: there is nothing wrong with having a mastectomy or being infertile if you don’t want breasts and you don’t want biological children. You don’t need to relate , some people are different to you. Difference is ok.

and

“What I said is- it’s ok to be different. Not everybody has to be “normal”, it doesn’t mean they are ill or disgusting or traumatised. Some people are just different to you. That’s ok.”

And

”But this is exactly it- you say “without good reason”, because you cannot understand the reason why a trans person might have a mastectomy. the reason is - because they are trans. You cannot relate to being trans, therefore you can’t understand it, because it is something so radically unfamiliar and different to your own experience.

I think anyone reading these posts would consider you are dismissing the realities of these operations in the casualness of ‘they are just different’.

You dismiss the life long issues that come with them too.

No. It is not reasonable to gloss over those issues with ‘they are just trans’. It diminishes what has been allowed to sold as appropriate treatment for a cohort that is being let down by medical teams, by lobby groups supposedly set up to support and ensure the highest standard of care, and by people who think female teenagers and young adults undergoing these surgeries should be normalised.

That removing healthy body parts resulting in significant tissue damage and complications should be considered normal.

What other group of people are told removing healthy body parts that results in significant tissue damage and complications is appropriate?

In any case, this thread is actually about Oli London and his experiences.

How about you tell us again, clearly, why you think that his experiences shouldn’t be discussed?

And by ‘experiences’, I think the fact he was able to have so many surgeries is of massive concern. That other young people could think this is ok without appropriate checks by the surgeon is negligent by those surgeons.

Him discussing his long search for being able to accept himself is really important. Even if some people perceive it as his next money grab, I hope he is now receiving the mental health support he needs.

Just alerting people that these extreme cases happen isn’t much of a warning because people will always minimise the potential of it happening to them. With good reason, it is likely to not happen to them.

It is the how and the why that is important to discuss. And the more he does this, the more it opens the debate up.

”most of what you say here is so twisted and erroneous it doesn’t really warrant a response.”

Actually, I think you can do better than that.

What part of me questioning the treatment of the young female transitioner cohort do you believe I have twisted?

And where am I in error?

We are now on the feminist board due to whoever reported it.

What is feminist about accepting the sex based inequality between the expectations, the lack of curiosity and treatment? The inequity that has been reported and dismissed?

So, rather than the big hand wave of ‘twisted and erroneous’ now is your opportunity to correct all that!

By the way, for those reading along, the specific issues that this cohort of transitioners have faced is addressed in the Cass report.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

I am happy to later pull out the relevant points where Dr Cass discussed that too little is known about this cohort. I am on my phone and cannot do that right now.

I believe she means to address the lack of information. But as yet; we have to rely on gender clinicians around the world who are raising the issues for discussion. Only, those clinicians and experts are dismissed as Dr Bowers was earlier in this thread.

@Transparent2 I wish you and your son the best.

As I have already said, but since you tagged me I will repeat, I will cross that bridge if I find myself in the situation. I do not have the mental bandwidth to take on any more at present.

I responded to the initial question posed in AIBU, and the fact that the thread has been moved now makes my posts seem odd.

Some great posts @Helleofabore . A great example of what it means to be well informed!
It is beyond my comprehension that anyone thinks it's ethical to affirm a child in their belief that they were 'born in the wrong body' and that they must therefore change it so drastically. There are other ways to treat the distress children and adults can feel about their bodies. I keep thinking of the song 'Big Yellow Taxi' - You don't know what you've got til it's gone. There's no going back from this treatment. The people responsible for this should be held to account, although I don't hold out much hope that this will happen.

I always have a little chuckle at the suggestion that only trans people understand the concept of being trans when apparently any Tom Dick or Harry knows exactly what it means to be a woman!

yes , I read Tavistock and bell. Both judgements. The high court judgement was garbage and luckily was thrown out on appeal.

The High Court judgment was not garbage and it was not thrown out on appeal. The information contained in the judgment was correct, what was successfully appealed was the position that it was for courts not doctors to decide on treatments.

I mean, what do I say to this? Do I think it’s ok for a trans person to have a mastectomy- yes. Does that make me ignorant or dismissive - no. It derives from listening and understanding the lives experiences of trans people. Just because you think it’s horrific and wrong to be trans and have surgeries, doesn’t mean that it is.

Btw, You are grossly misrepresenting and twisting the words of the president of WPATH. The WPATH recommend an affirmative model of care , including for under 18s. Which is nothing like what we have in this country btw.

Defining trans is quite simple.
Go on then. All those words and you didn't even tell me your definition.

And yes, believers. Why so difficult to understand that some people believe differently to you? It's a pretty common occurrence in life. Some people believe in God, some people believe that sex is real and important and you can't change it by medicine or identifying.

The decision was thrown out in appeal. Yes the primary legal argument was it’s for doctors not courts to decide on this- (which is absolutely correct ) . The judgement also pointed out that the high court made claims based on “impression” and “disputed evidence” and assumed scientific consensus in areas where there is none.

The judgement was absolutely garbage.

It is deeply ironic that you are feigning concern about the long term wellbeing of trans people. Yes trans affirming medical interventions have consequences, so do the effects of natural puberty, and living a lifetime of dysphoric distress and the social and functional difficulties of failing to pass. You don’t understand the latter issues because you can’t relate to them. That’s doesn’t mean they aren’t real or are unimportant.

The appeal court ruled that doctors in clinics can still apply Gillick to decisions around puberty blockers. But that still means that doctors have to be satisfied that the children understand the implications of puberty blockers in the original ruling, namely:

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;

(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;

(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;

(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and

(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

The original ruling was not garbage. Because it brought all of the issues around consent and progression of treatments to light. None of that is disputed. There is no consensus on how to treat children.

There’s a logic failure here. The implication is that taking away the effects of natural puberty would mean that a person would not suffer a lifetime of dysphoric distress. This is only logical if you’re ideologically driven. The evidence is lacking that removing the distress of puberty affects lifetime dysphoria because the original Dutch studies have been so utterly flawed they do not show this. Equally no further study has shown this.

Of course children should understand the consequences of taking puberty blockers , as they should with hormonal contraceptives etc. no one suggested otherwise .
The appeals court overturned the high courts blanket assertion that was unlikely that adolescents under 16 could have legal competency, said that the high courts reasoning and conclusions were based on “impression” and assumptions and disputed evidence, and said it was for doctors to assess that and that’s absolutely correct.

Doctors need to assess it. Free from prejudice. It’s not the same as contraception because they’re different questions. A child can be Gillick competent on consenting to contraception treatment and not Gillick competent when it comes to puberty blockers. How can a doctor confidently assess that a child aged 10 or 11 understands that they will never have a sex life?

Since y’all rate the WPATH so much, I suggest that you go take a look at what they have to say about that, and , err, talk to some older trans people!!!! (And not just isolated and exceptional stories of detransitioners promoted by the daily mail , and hate groups like transgenderttrend to stoke up transphobia) Talk to a wider and representative selection. Radical thought I know).

I need to take my kids to nursery. Have a good day all.

Lots of trans people who’ve have interventions have a perfectly satisfying and happy sex life. Sorry if it doesn’t conform to your heterosexist norms.

ok I really do have to go x

Nobody rates WPATH outside of WPATH. Even its own President Marci Bowers thinks it may be a problem putting children on puberty blockers due to possible social contagion and lack of orgasms.

We can’t talk to older trans people because the ones who were puberty blocked as young children haven’t been followed up with published research data. But some of their stories online point towards a lack of resolution of their issues, poor quality of life in many areas and poor sexual function affecting relationships.

Radical thought, have you spoken to those people?