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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

990 replies

Moomoola · 11/01/2023 08:15

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Moomoola · 23/01/2023 19:24

Thanks all.we sent a message saying love and support and it’s a good idea to get lots of views from people who love you when making big decisions.
she’s said she’s making her own decisions for her, and we are to stop pressuring her.
Dh asked what are the decisions? And we haven’t heard back.
Dh wants me to give up part time job so that he can feel we are doing the best we can to get her back. Not sure, but maybe it will help his stress. And I can paint the hall!

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Catswhisky · 23/01/2023 20:06

I wouldn’t give up your job if you can help it.

Firstly, what would you be doing to get her back in that time that you are not able to do now?
Secondly, when I’m going through stressful times I actually need that structure of work, when I have to focus on work , and it’s an enforced break from the stressful situation. It’s good for your sanity.

Moomoola · 24/01/2023 06:23

Thanks. Wake up feeling so anxious. For dd, Dh and son, who must be missing her but doesn’t say.

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BearingFalseWitness · 24/01/2023 06:35

I agree @Moomoola that giving up work, especially if it's part-time could actually be more stressful as you will lose some structure and time to distract you and get you out of the house. Otherwise you could spend a lot of time at home feeling anxious. Do you have friends at work? Do you enjoy it? Because you also need support.

Moomoola · 24/01/2023 06:44

It’s a nice job working with people. They’ve offered to let me cut my hours for a bit. I could stay home and freelance but I do like the structure. it would be three days. I can freelance/ decorate on other days.
Dh wants me to sit outside the house, find out where the mum works, join the pta and spread the word. I say that will backfire.
it’s awful because dd has basically said back off. Y his is so not like her.
thanks bearing for posting. Was feeling a bit daunted and alone.
Dh taking it so badly.

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frotthle · 24/01/2023 07:07

I’ve just read the thread, massive sympathies this must be so hard.

I think you’ll have to play the long game here.

Moomoola · 24/01/2023 07:15

Thanks frotthie that means a lot.
we talked to someone at the school who will have a quiet word.
shes told me to give her space so I’ve not replied since Saturday.
pits so hard. We thought we were getting somewhere on Friday when Dh had a good chat and she’d agreed to go for sushi.
now we are told to give her space and we are not giving her space and when she sees us she feels horrible and anxious like at Xmas.
dont f ing sneak off the day before then!
I guess I don’t text for a while and hopefully something will happen.
social worker friend said in her experience these things don’t last as it’s all so unstable.
her friend said she was with dd a while back when dd was getting texts off x saying she couldn’t take it, she wanted to spilt. Unfortunately we don’t know what it was she couldn’t take. Maybe it was dd still being in contact with us.
sorry. Been a long night!

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BezMills · 24/01/2023 07:15

@Moomoola it must be so difficult. DH's suggestion is not one I recommend, but I see where he's coming from for sure. He wants to take action and make things happen. I just don't know what to say, but yes to keeping up with work. You need whatever structure, routine, self-care etc you can get to keep yourself going in such a difficult time.🌹

RinklyRomaine · 24/01/2023 07:20

She is being groomed and coached within an inch of her life, isn't she? Take heart that she is occasionally warming and reaching out, keep repeating your love and support, that all you want is for her to be happy and that caring isn't judgement. Tell her whatever happens she can come home, and keep calling it home.

Fwiw a nephew of mine ended up in a similar style of relationship (nothing gender related) and it was an awful 3 years. The girl was unstable, cruel and abusive, absolutely enabled by useless parents, and a master manipulator playing on his good qualities with a faux vulnerability. His poor mum thought they'd lost him when the girlfriend repeatedly cheated on him and dumped him out of nowhere and he woke up. Keep hope.

Moomoola · 24/01/2023 07:20

Thanks bez it’s hard for him, he is used to taking action as you say.
Thanks for the thought, I am getting confused as to what’s best. Re reading this thread is helping keep me sane.
can’t thank you all enough.💐

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Moomoola · 24/01/2023 07:25

Thanks rinkly your poor nephew.
I’ll keep doing that, and calling it home.
was wondering whether to write a longer email that might not get seen by x.
Dh says it will just give her more to analyse and use against us.
yes, she really is being groomed relentlessly.
I’ll send a text of love when I think she might be alone.
even if she wanted to leave she wouldn’t have the courage to disappoint x or cause a scene.
thanks. So nice to not feel alone.

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ChungusBoi · 24/01/2023 07:52

I have nothing constructive to add but I am sorry you are going through this. What a nightmare. Can’t believe the school are being so useless.

Moomoola · 24/01/2023 08:04

Everyone is. They say she is nearly 18 and old enough to do what she wants, or they have been stonewalled/ mermaided.
im reading up on cults as a lovely pp suggested. The similarities to the trans thing and what’s happening to dd are astonishing. Cults are horrendous, they work an attacking your core identity so that’s a LOT of work to recover, if you can see clearly enough to leave. And are brave enough.
I’m so bl**dy naive.

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PauliString · 24/01/2023 08:15

Do NOT leave a job you like and lose part of your own identity in the process. Your husband is panicking, but does he realize what a bad example it would be for you to give up part of your life and isolate yourself on your partner’s say-so? Given that’s what your daughter has done?

RinklyRomaine · 24/01/2023 08:50

I really feel for you. So hard when you want to shake her into sense. I'd agree with your DH on the email. Don't give X any ammo. Tell her she will always have space to be safe when she asks for it, that's what home means. Remind her of the things she's always loved. Little tiny things X will know nothing of, all with love, all reminding her in teeny ways that YOU have always been there and always will, happy, sad, naughty or whatever. I suspect she will run out of value to X at some point soon and then it will come crashing down, at which point you need to be where she runs to.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 09:22

I hate to heap more on your plate but I think it’s best I warn you - X might be supplying your DD with testosterone?

We’ve had some real issues in my DstepD’s friendship group with this, a couple of them
have online prescriptions via a dodgy UK GP who is currently suspended but operates an offshore business. Another managed to get a prescription via Superdrug’s online chatbot style GP using her older brother’s passport.

Testosterone is a controlled substance but it seems surprisingly easy for wily teenagers to get their hands on it, especially the topical gel form.

That your DD has said X is satisfied with their current appearance and no longer taking testosterone pings my radar (3 years of dealing with this but younger child somewhat easier situation) as if X continues to order the drug in the same way, X could be giving it away/selling it on.

I don’t mean for this to sound as sinister as it likely comes across in text, obviously as adults we can anticipate the long term issues with sharing a prescription drug, but teenagers are rubbish at impulse control and longterm thinking and teenage girls also tend to be tightly enmeshed with their closest friends, so physically sharing something significant is a normal part of their friendships (only normally it’s clothes or a tiny flat, not a performance enhancing steroid!)

Anyway, if X does turn out to be sharing testosterone with your DD there maybe some criminal liability there.

Perhaps concerns about potential for shared testosterone is something you could discuss with your school contact? Even just bedsharing with someone who uses topical testosterone can be dangerous (there is a famous case of a little boy starting precocious pubertal development from secondhand exposure to his dad’s perfectly legitimate TRT prescription).

I think I found the lady who lost her son to ISIS btw, will be back with some links…

Jellycats4life · 24/01/2023 09:25

I agree that your husband seems to be fixated on you leaving your job because he’s desperate and wants to feel like you are doing your utmost to get DD back.

But as people have been saying, you need to play the long game here. She has been groomed into a cult (and that’s a statement MNHQ would delete you for years ago, so we have made progress) and the way out isn’t easy or straightforward. She’s so deeply immersed in it right now, with her romantic relationship and the enabling mother.

Hopefully they will soon get tired of living in each other’s pockets and DD will want some freedom and space. The hardest thing will be admitting that she wants to come back to you. That’s why this advice is so good: Tell her she will always have space to be safe when she asks for it, that's what home means.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 09:31

Obviously the situation is completely different but I do believe there are similarities in how the separation between sensitive, vulnerable adolescent and loving parent is leveraged and widenedZ

m.youtube.com/watch?v=f5zrAkj5opM

The mum, Nicola, is actually a counsellor. I wonder if she’s had anyone contact her re: gender related issues?

www.mothersforlife.org/en/keyparents/nicola-benyahiha

www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/nicola-benyahia

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 09:45

Nicola Benyahiya’s org:

familiesforlife.org.uk/what-we-do

And I believe this is the chap who was helping Nicola with what to say when her son made sporadic contact:

girds.org/staff/daniel-koehler

His work is motivated by counter terrorism and he’s looked into various forms of radicalisation (from Right Wing to Islamist) so he’s observed common patterns in both the radicalisation process and in those who are vulnerable to it).

Your current situation puts me in mind of Scientology and how those of us outside of it are characterised as ‘suppressive persons’.

Will see if I can find some potentially relevant strategies in ex Scientology writing in the next few days but don’t want to flood you with too many links at once!

💐

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 10:03

Bit more (sorry!) our previous discussions re: the cult-like dynamics of some some of this stuff are spread out in various threads (as Jellycats rightly points out above, it’s been a touchy subject and certain necessary words have prompted mass deletions) probably the most concentrated group of posts is mid way through this thread (link should take you to a relevant bit):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4689915-so-thats-why-susie-green-left?page=17

I’m paging @Redtoothbrush because she’s been reading a lot of relevant sources and is really insightful about interpersonal dynamics in general.

Hope you don’t mind the tag, Red - feel free to ignore if you have no time or energy right now!

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2023 12:02

Just reading this and trying to catch up / process. Will try and think of a few things about this because I've seen this from a weird angle.

In terms of it being a cult, if that's what's going on, the leaving your job and trying to get involved isn't likely to help - if anything it will be a disaster. The problem with cults is they have an entrenchment issue - it's them and us so the more you push the more it entrenches.

The other thing is she is 18. That means joining the pta is good for a year at most and actually when people join a cult they are usually in it for several years. And it's like drugs and alcohol - the only person who can say no is the person at the centre of this and the only way they usually do that is by having an epiphany through a series of events (usually a crisis) or because they have significant life changes that make them question things. The one way to counter a cult isn't by saying no, it's by encouraging questions to niggle under the skin. The cognitive dissonance stuff to be picked at slowly - not in a barrage but on the terms of the person involved - it's about picking moments.

The one good thing with your daughter being 18 is that there's going to be some significant life changes going on in the next year or two. The instability is the cause of all this no doubt, but it's also probably the best thing in terms of her suddenly dropping out of the cult too.

Seriously though, quitting your job is a kneejerk reaction to something that's not going to get fixed anytime soon and you need to start seeing things this way

At some point I think you need to have a conversation about medicalisation and complications - I'd take the line about 'informed choice' and making sure she is - that's stuff like comordibities, long term consequences, lose of sexual function, infertility etc etc. And stressing that nothing is reversible as much as it's being pushed. You'd be better spending time preparing for this. You would need to stress it's her choice but you want her to make the right one. And actually make the point about medical supervision and not getting drugs off other people etc etc in case that's happening. Centre her heath and well being. Everything else if peripheral to that in the sense it's less of a priority.

I may post again later, but you need to understand the dynamics going forward. There is a halfway house between positive affirmation and outright rejection. That's the one you need to tred. I would be stressing stuff like she also needs to give you time to come to terms with things and to offer you reassurance (perhaps play we are the old gits, educate us card - to open up a narrative where you can act stupid and ask questions).

Given I no longer speak to my brother (not have the remotest desire to), I'm not necessarily an expert here (more to do with having a shit relationship with him to begin with). My mother's affirmative approach doesn't seem to have helped at all - I don't think my brother speaks to my mum much nor my dad at all these days. I think he was much further sucked in, very early on and I was always determined to reject us (one of the things he told us early on was that it wasn't uncommon to reject family - even if they were understanding - because it was too much of a reminder of their former selves etc so I don't think we could have done much differently to have a different outcome). He was in his mid to late twenties at this point and I think that's slightly different especially as he was male - he'd almost 'set' his identity by this point and clearly wanted to take it out on me from the very beginning.

So I think a lot rests on the state of your underlying relationship and whether she values you too. Don't take an initial rejection as a bad sign though. It might be the oppose - my brother was always desperate for my mother's approval alongside total rejection of me (sibling rivalry / attention seeking were very much part of the dynamic in my family hence how a lot of it panned out. Ironically my mothers pandering - which drives me insane when she does it to me - is liable to have gone off the scale and pushed him away eventually anyway!)

'Everything in moderation' is the key phrase I think that strikes me throughout. Don't push, play the long game, a game where you focus on encouraging her to ask questions herself by carefully wording things rather than being more confrontational and trying to plant ideas more directly. That's what chips away at cultlike thinking.

Charging in like a bull in a china shop and quitting job, isn't going to work. You have to respect her decision making (cos she has a right to make terrible decisions) but also stress you care and are worried.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/01/2023 12:09

OP this article was posted on another thread about teenage girls and trans. It does not have a solution to your dilemma, but is very interesting.

archive.ph/Lawwa

Moomoola · 25/01/2023 16:41

Thanks everyone. I will have a read and catch up to ight.
School had a chat and said she's going in to school and will fit job in around school Yadda Yadda. Well done teachers! She also said she's grateful for the space since she said basically bugger off on Saturday.oThat was only because I couldn't Think what to say.but DH write a lovely text to her about how much she is loved and part of the family.
Today I get a terse, ' can you drop my passport and ni number At school'
No how are you, nothing chatty. It's so unlike her. She is really being persuaded to cut us off. Feel so impotent.
I'm so tempted to call and tell her how hurtful and unnecessary this is and why is she doing it. How do I reply? And why should I drive 30 mins each way to drop her stuff off after she's been so rude to us?
I even encouraged her to go away for a weekend with X. And helped book the tickets ffs. I took her to buy boys clothes. I shared my own shady past as a way of saying, ' no judgement going on here' and we agreed to chat ...and then she snuck off.
How do I combat this awful relentless cutting off of us? X must be rubbing her hands with glee.
I can't even phone the mum and say how's my daughter getting on with you both?
Sorry. Sitting in Tesco carpark, not the best place to be. Going over all the stuff we should have done differently. Trying not to let this destroy our relationship with D's. And each other.
This will affect D's how do I manage it? I don't want him to become a replacement but I want him to know he's loved
I just wanted a big family with noisy Sunday lunches and instead I feel so isolated and alone and rubbish.
Sorry. Really hit me after that text.

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 25/01/2023 17:28

Today I get a terse, ' can you drop my passport and ni number At school'

I would encourage you to firmly, without anger, tell her that she is asking a favor if you and if she wants this, she can come to the house and talk politely with the family. Don't be her doormat. Make sure to set boundaries where she needs to treat you, your DH and DS with respect.

My friend's teen daughter who has a new identity is so unbelievably rude to her mom that even my DD called her on it, "like your mom is so nice. Why are you so mean to her?" I think this is a feature of the group.

She is testing her new antisocial behavior (cause that's a lot what this gender identity is) and it's okay to call out its rudeness and entitlement. Again, I'd advise calmly, but she should know she's treating you with disrespect.

If you demand others respect you, she will see she should respect herself as well. You are her mother and daughters see themselves in their mothers whether they like it or not. Standing up for yourself could mean she stands up for herself against this self-harming belief. Good luck. You're not the only mom going through this.

TheClogLady · 25/01/2023 19:46

I agree with Delph

I think perhaps I would ignore the (rude!) request to deliver to school and say something like ‘your passport and NI number are in an envelope on the dining table ready for you to collect. I’m working on my own boundaries at the moment (inspired by you!) so do text to check it’s a convenient time for me before you set off’ Then add something chatty about school/her brother/something you have in common even if it’s just a TV programme?