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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So that's why Susie Green left

877 replies

DistantVworp · 02/12/2022 13:27

Charity commission launches formal inquiry into Mermaids:
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1598666394610147329?s=20&t=x_Supvwk6lHkKBR7a-ESSw

About bloody time!

OP posts:
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28
Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 23:45

LizzieSiddal · 02/12/2022 23:17

After reading what employees/trustees have said about her, I’m hoping Suzy will show more of that “lack of self reflection” and gives another interview to The Guardian.

I might be wrong but I'm going to guess even they won't be taking her calls these days.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2022 23:45

Right trying to do a bit of reading up on the next phase for cults and to sort of crystalise my thinking on a number of things.

(Noting that two guys called Dennis Tourish and Tim Wohlforth wrote a book in 2000 called 'On the Edge: Political Cults Right and Left' which is about a dozen organizations in the United States and Great Britain that they characterize as cults. Tourish makes the point: The word cult is not a term of abuse, as this paper tries to explain. It is nothing more than a shorthand expression for a particular set of practices that have been observed in a variety of dysfunctional organisations. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT OBSERVATION AND CLARIFICATION!)

First of all its important to note who joins a cult. Its NOT stupid people. Educated and uneducated are equally likely to join. Research seems to suggest that women are more vulnerable and in particular the biggest risk factor seems to be low self esteem.

Whats that about Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria? Girls with low self esteem?

One of the things I'm picking up is that indentity change is a key feature of cults:
Undue Influence does NOT erase the person’s old identity but rather creates a new identity to suppress the old one. After different types of manipulation, the creation of a new identity is done step-by-step by formal indoctrination sessions and informally by members, videos, games, movies, publications, and social/digital media. Behavior modification techniques are employed, such as rewards/punishments, thought-stopping, and control of environment (isolation or restriction of access to others). And then the new identify is reinforced and the old identify suppressed.
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202106/understanding-cults-the-basics

Mermaids is an organisation which is founded on the principle of identity change!

Cults are attractive because they promote an illusion of comfort.
Humans desire comfort, and in a fearful and uncertain world many turn to cults because they tend to promote exactly that. Jon-Patrik Pedersen, a psychologist at CalTech, has pointed out that cult leaders often make promises that are totally unattainable, but also offered by no other group in society. Such things might include financial security, total health, constant peace of mind, and eternal life — the things every human desires at the deepest level.
www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/what-to-know-about-the-psychology-of-cults/

I think this is interesting in the context of a revolt from within. Green is failing to deliver on the promise of a 'better way' and protect the organisation from criticism. The security the group offers is at risk because Green did not protect it from OUTSIDE risks. Not internal ones. She hasn't delivered the utopia of pure thought and diversity they want nor has the identify change satisfied what they are looking for.

Many people join cults because they believe they’re being offered solid, absolute answers for questions such as good vs. evil, religion, the meaning of life, politics, etc. Many cult leaders promote messages that are simple and seem to make sense, the exact opposite of what we’re often provided with in typical, everyday life. New members are often found when individuals crave these answers and then are promised a simple life by someone who seems to have it all figured out.

Research done in the past two decades has found an interesting pattern: many people successfully recruited by cults are said to have low self-esteem. Cults generally do not look to recruit those with certain handicaps or clinical depression. However, people with low self-esteem are easier to break down, then build back up in an effort to teach them that the cult is the supportive environment they’re looking for. Those that lack confidence and self esteem are far more likely to fall for a pyramid scheme that promises a better life or to jump into a religious community or religious group without much thought. They are more vulnerable and desperate for these life promises.
www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/what-to-know-about-the-psychology-of-cults/

Again Green has gone because she doesn't represent someone who 'has it all figured out' in terms of 'ascending to this new identity and being happy'. And as things unravel she's becomes a natural target and the group think looks for a new sect leader to deliver on The Promise.

All this sounding relevant so far??

I have to say this is a very very interesting comment:
Dr. Stanley H. Cath, a psychoanalyst and psychology professor at Tufts University, has treated more than 60 former cult members over the course of his career. From this unique firsthand experience, Cath has noticed an interesting trend: many people who join cults have experienced mainstream religions at some point in their lives, and rejected it. Perhaps this is surprising, considering many cults tend to be religious — or at least claim to be. But Dr. Cath asserts that this trend is a sign of something deeper. Many of those who join cults are intelligent young people from sheltered environments. Growing up in such an environment, says Dr. Cath, often means that “many have a history of failing to achieve intimacy, of blaming others for their failures, and of constantly striving for perfectionistic goals.” These characteristics make them prime targets for cult recruitment. When a cult is offering a unique religious movement that feels safe but also a way to find their inner worth, they are likely to believe every word they are being told.
www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/what-to-know-about-the-psychology-of-cults/

Let me repeat that. People who join cults tend to be people who have rejected religion previously in someway. Thats like a whole young generation.

Going further Mermaids could possibly fit the description of a Destructive Cult - the key descriptors of a Destructive Cult is a group that have caused or are liable to cause physical injury or loss of life among their membership or the general public. Thats concerning because of attitudes to suicide that may be triggered or encouraged by the cult.

Suicide and cults is a theme. Mermaids have a very unhealthy obsession with pushing the suicide thing, which goes completely against The Samaritians suicide guidelines. Everyone who has ever repeated the shit they've come out with on this, should be hauled up over regulator coals.

In Cults and the Family, the authors cite Shapiro, who defines a destructive cultism as a sociopathic syndrome, whose distinctive qualities include: "behavioral and personality changes, loss of personal identity, cessation of scholastic activities, estrangement from family, disinterest in society and pronounced mental control and enslavement by cult leaders."
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult)

More generally cults leave a lasting effect on members:

Prolonged and intense coercive persuasion can cause identity disturbance. Commonly, there are many additional after-effects:
Extreme identity confusion
Panic and anxiety attacks
Depression
Psychosomatic symptoms (headaches, backaches, asthma, skin problems)
Anger, guilt and shame
Decision-making dependency
Fear and phobias
Sleep disorders/nightmares
Eating disorders
Fear of intimacy and commitment
Distrust of self and others
Grieving loss of friends and family
Delusions and paranoia
Loss of life meaning or purpose
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202106/understanding-cults-the-basics

This is particularly disturbing in the context of 'the most vulnerable in society' narrative and patterns we know of to do with self reported mental health. Its almost like a self fulfilling phophecy combined with a self selecting group due to various underlying vulnerabilities.

So how do cults collapse? They seem to often implode with a leader being caught up with scandal with members not ready to abandon their 'faith' regrouping and fracturing into several smaller groups.

Cults tend to have a certain shelf life if they can't maintain their recruitment over time. And there is an observation that, since their founders are liable to have some sort of narcissistic personality disorder they are prone to lying and manipulating without repercussion and aren't likely to be levelheadedness or reasonability. Which tends to eventually lead to infighting and instability without proper management skills.

Funny that. It seems to be exactly what we are seeing developing.

All of this is EXTREMELY concerning and its about time that authorities start looking at Mermaids through the lens of being a potential cult, because if it is, the implications are significant, especially at this point in its cycle and given the CHILDREN involved and caught up in it. Not adults. Children.

I think one of the BIG problems we have with this is, getting people to recognise that cults do not have to be religious (indeed see above they tend to be popular amongst people who have rejected religion) and the trend in recent years seems to be towards to be towards political cults (with social media playing a big role in this).

If Mermaids are to be investigated, looking at it with all the above in mind IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO BE AWARE OF as it explains whats happened and the reasons behind the safeguarding fails. If we can better identify this in a modern context lessons can be learnt for other situations.

I feel like I need to scream about this to the rooftops at this stage. I have been saying FOR YEARS there was a problem along these lines and the more that comes out the closer it looks to this.

Its incredibly reminscent of the Satanic Abuse Scandals of the 80s and 90s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

When the dust settles on this, I really think this is roughly where we are going to land in terms of people going wtaf, how was this allowed to go on for so long.

More basic stuff on the concept of cults and whats going on:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

I'm ANGRY.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.

TheBiologyStupid · 02/12/2022 23:46

ArabellaScott · 02/12/2022 23:24

Michael Cashman:

'There is a well funded, concerted attack on organisations that supports trans-people. The latest attack is on the brilliant organisation MermaidsGender. The attacks will then go on against LGBQI people. It is despicable & that it comes from some LGB quislings is unforgivable.'

twitter.com/mcashmanCBE/status/1598788658672242689

Archiving right now - he might live to regret that nonsense...!

Delphinium20 · 02/12/2022 23:49

I was enjoying another MN AIBU thread the last few days, "Light hearted - who would you like a special place in hell reserved for?"

I'm not going to add this as it would ruin the requested 'lighthearted' spirit, but here's one agnostic who is hoping there's a sot reserved for SG (not lighthearted). If you've harmed your child, you can't fix it by doubling down and harming more children.

MilkshakesBringAllTheCoosToTheYard · 02/12/2022 23:50

ResisterRex · 02/12/2022 22:09

The staff complaints and turnover part of that article:

"Of Mermaids’s ten trustees, half were appointed last summer alone. It is understood that eight out of 44 staff have left in the past two months, half of them transgender and many of them junior managers or officers.

An insider also claimed three out of around five people of colour in the charity have left this year.

The whistleblower claimed: “One of the big issues with Susie was she is incapable of being self-reflective, so when anyone took any complaints to her it would fall on deaf ears because she was unwilling to have anything at fault, even when it was ways of suggesting how handling things could be improved, it would be like you’re attacking her and not attacking Mermaids.
“A lot of junior staff, especially trans ones, were the ones left on the sidelines and almost treated like we were children. Some people had put in complaints. More junior staff, the younger trans people who you’d hope an organisation for trans young people would support, are the ones most dissatisfied at how it’s being run. They were getting treated the worst.”"
However, this is interesting. From a staff perspective, you'd expect to be told why your organisation is engaging in a legal battle:

"Mermaids has also launched the first legal challenge of its kind seeking to strip LGB Alliance, a same-sex group critical of gender ideology, of its charitable statuss_. This left some staff “confused as to why Mermaids was taking it on,” the source said."

On trustee turnover, many charities limit the number of terms a trustee can stay in role, which means there can naturally be high level of turnover all at once. It's not ideal and something boards should mitigate against but it does happen and isn't necessarily sinister.

The more I read about this the less happy I am. The CC is bound to investigate if certain conditions are met. It is entirely possible staff have felt MM isn't achieving its charitable objectives by not being active/TRA-y enough.

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 23:53

@RedToothBrush Fuck me!

Obviously not literally.

They really are one aren't they!

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2022 23:54

The high turnovers of trustees served to reduce the ability and willingness of trustees to do their actual job.

Instead it looks like they did it to get a nice little line on their CVs rather than to be remotely interested in the responsibility of being a trustee.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 00:00

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 23:53

@RedToothBrush Fuck me!

Obviously not literally.

They really are one aren't they!

I am convinced of it at this point.

If / when there is a public inquiry, I hope everyone screams this at those leading it.

My big fear is we are going to see some really awful stuff happen if Mermaids does go down, if its not handled with this in mind.

Whole families - and the kids in particular - will continue to need support and to understand what has happened and its not necessarily anything to do with gender.

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:03

Please tell me @RedToothBrush that you will be very shortly sending this to the CC as a proper valid concern when they look at mermaids.

Thank you your posts have been very ILLUMINATING

IcakethereforeIam · 03/12/2022 00:16

@RedToothBrush is MN letting your posts stay up? They definitely should, you've evidenced them and they're in context. I also hope you bring them to the attention of the CC. As you say, it isn't hindsight.

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:18

IcakethereforeIam · 03/12/2022 00:16

@RedToothBrush is MN letting your posts stay up? They definitely should, you've evidenced them and they're in context. I also hope you bring them to the attention of the CC. As you say, it isn't hindsight.

Well it's not like the TRA s are out in force policing our every thought.😁I'm missing Pie.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 00:18

People need to start repeating the point on twitter.

Its no good just telling the CC. The message has to get OUT THERE so people start asking questions across the board.

You deprogramme by encouraging a thought process.

Get people asking the right questions. Get people THINKING about whats happened.

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:18

Plus its hard to deny when Red has laid out the points so well

MoirasSaggyBundles · 03/12/2022 00:20

Very interesting, @RedToothBrush I'm glad we can use the C word now on MN. I too have written about the cultish aspect of the gender movement in the past and been deleted. One thing that struck me about the Leah Remini series on a well known Hollywood cult was her repeated assertion that it is charitable status that allowed them to get away with what they get away with. And the way they got this status is allegedly through a campaign of personal harassment of law makers and charity commissioners. They have tiny numbers of followers but immense wealth and an outsized amount of power and influence.

Megyn Kelly had a cult expert on her show the other day - he went through all the common hallmarks shared by different cults, but IIRC, fell short of declaring that social justice movements are cults because there is no obvious leader/figurehead. I didn't agree with him on this, because I think these movements are based on collective narcissism and turning yourself into the god of your own mini cult within the cult, IYSWIM. I'll see if I can find a link, as it was an interesting discussion.

They all label dissenters as suppressives and wage harassment campaigns against them. They all seek to separate people from their family and promise a new and uncritical/endlessly supportive family. They all require a belief in the unbelievable. They all make their followers believe that what they are doing as an org is the most important thing in the world. They all have an ideation of death in one form or other.

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:24

@MoirasSaggyBundles it's a franchised cult each branch uses the Trademark branding has to promote the corporate aim through rote phrases but as long as the balance in the bank it's in profit and membership numbers increase how they achieve that goal is fairly franchise owner orientated.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 00:28

IcakethereforeIam · 03/12/2022 00:16

@RedToothBrush is MN letting your posts stay up? They definitely should, you've evidenced them and they're in context. I also hope you bring them to the attention of the CC. As you say, it isn't hindsight.

I am REALLY trying to be careful with this and to carefully explain WHY this is relevant and should be discussed and talked about.

I know posts have been deleted on this previously, which is why I'm trying to qualify it as best I can and to put it into context.

We have a group(s) which very much fit with the most at risk of being recruited into a cult - who often COULD be called some of the most vulnerable - and that should be recognised as part of this.

We know cults are highly related to identity.

And we know suicide is a reoccuring theme of cults.

We know how they operate and often reject the law in the process of that. We know how they create them and us narratives. We know how they try to drive family and friend alienation to keep people in. We know they are focused on the purity of an ideology.

We HAVE to see whats happened in this way.

It COULD very much explain why we've got a massive explosion ESPECIALLY in teenage girls which NO ONE has an explanation for. Not even Mermaids.

Even if we believe in trans kids and doing the best for them, the suicide narrative is very much central to Mermaids so that HAS to be addressed because of potential the implications of it.

And even if all my posts here do get deleted, the point isn't going away. It WILL start to get discussed even if MN won't allow it. I sincerely hope they have the good sense to recognise that I'm not trying to smear anyone, I'm trying to highlight the functionality of the group.

SidewaysOtter · 03/12/2022 00:30

I'm missing Pie.

Has anyone checked on Marge? Normally they’ve plopped in and plopped off again by now. Does she need a dose of smelling salts?

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:33

@ArabellaScott beautiful response from one tweeter to cashman : "the call is coming from inside the house," with a link to the second telegraph article attached.

ha ha ha ha ha.

Oh today has been a good day, I've achieved Bugger all of the things i was meant to be doing, but it's been worth it.

I have a snoring cat on me. I think that's my cue to put the tablet away.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 00:33

Or should I say, the disfunctionality, which is now being widely recognised in the media, by the MP who is the Undersecretary for Safeguarding and the Charity Commission.

We KNOW there is a problem with how Mermaids is running. I don't think at this point with multiple safeguarding fails there is any doubt about there being a mismanagement issue.

The mismanagement issue is manifesting in a way which is extreme and the last campaign they ran was literally a Them V Us one in terms of being under attack. Thats a classic feature.

I don't think this now remains a controversial opinion to hold. Its one which begs for investigation and discussion.

IcakethereforeIam · 03/12/2022 00:35

I was feeling quite kindly to Pie the other day, on a different thread she seemed to backtrack a little. Baby steps but....

Hope she's okay.

(I say 'she' coz MN but Hmm)

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:35

SidewaysOtter · 03/12/2022 00:30

I'm missing Pie.

Has anyone checked on Marge? Normally they’ve plopped in and plopped off again by now. Does she need a dose of smelling salts?

Let me know if she appears I'll no doubt be up for a pee every hour as usual. She's not usually gone for this long. Do we report her to HQ and ask them to do a welfare check?

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:42

Even if we believe in trans kids and doing the best for them, the suicide narrative is very much central to Mermaids so that HAS to be addressed because of potential the implications of it.

this bit from Reds post. Just like in a cult it wouldn't be to hard to persuade the most devoted to the leader to prove to the wider population that what they say is true about the rates and if not affirmed this is what they will be forced to do. Takes drinking the kool aid to a whole new level.

TheBiologyStupid · 03/12/2022 00:45

TheBiologyStupid · 02/12/2022 23:46

Archiving right now - he might live to regret that nonsense...!

Quite the ratio: archive.ph/AY9Qx

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 00:52

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 00:42

Even if we believe in trans kids and doing the best for them, the suicide narrative is very much central to Mermaids so that HAS to be addressed because of potential the implications of it.

this bit from Reds post. Just like in a cult it wouldn't be to hard to persuade the most devoted to the leader to prove to the wider population that what they say is true about the rates and if not affirmed this is what they will be forced to do. Takes drinking the kool aid to a whole new level.

Yes.

And this is why I can't revel Green going and the CC investigating too much.

Because of the fallout on a group who have been conditioned to believe they must have access to hormones and surgery and how you have vultures like the Webberleys also touting for business in the midst of this.

There are no good outcomes until it starts being recognised what's been happening.