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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

990 replies

Moomoola · 11/01/2023 08:15

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

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Thread gallery
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TheClogLady · 25/01/2023 19:57

You’d probably benefit from talking to other mums/families in similar situations - once you see the enormous variation in families facing similar situations right now it will be much harder to blame yourself.

It’s a trixy ideology and it sneaks in and drives a wedge - most people aren’t aware until it comes to their own doorstep (and even those of us who knew about it have found it difficult to stop it getting a foothold).

I can recommend a good Facebook group if you think it will be helpful?

Moomoola · 26/01/2023 08:37

Thank you so much everyone. Thank you redtoothbrush and cloglady for taking the time to write such long well considered replies, and thank you everyone for writing caring sense.
I’m writing a reply. What I want to say is ‘wtf, cheeky mare, after all you are putting us through’ but I will obviously phrase it better and more lovingly!
Dh is really hurt and bewildered. I’m calling ‘time’ on the discussion s at night, but am woken with his worries. It’s exhausting.
im now terrified of losing son, and realised I am beginning to get depressed.
I need to sort something nice for half term. Dh never wants to think about holidays, he’s always too busy.
I shall start another thread called any ideas a 15 yr old boy and his mum can do!

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ScrollingLeaves · 26/01/2023 09:01

That half term break is such a good idea

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2023 23:25

Moomoola · 26/01/2023 08:37

Thank you so much everyone. Thank you redtoothbrush and cloglady for taking the time to write such long well considered replies, and thank you everyone for writing caring sense.
I’m writing a reply. What I want to say is ‘wtf, cheeky mare, after all you are putting us through’ but I will obviously phrase it better and more lovingly!
Dh is really hurt and bewildered. I’m calling ‘time’ on the discussion s at night, but am woken with his worries. It’s exhausting.
im now terrified of losing son, and realised I am beginning to get depressed.
I need to sort something nice for half term. Dh never wants to think about holidays, he’s always too busy.
I shall start another thread called any ideas a 15 yr old boy and his mum can do!

The stuff about the rudeness is dead interesting... For my brother it certainly was a reason to 'legitimately' be a total arse to the whole family and DH.

I would echo the stuff about not being a doormat to it. It did my mum no good. Don't go there. Make a point of saying you don't speak to me like that whilst demanding things. If she wants respect she needs to give it. You don't lose anything if she's already behaving like this towards you, except your self respect.

In terms of your son. Be there for him. Don't sacrifice him to please your daughter.

I was about 30 when it happened in our family. It screwed my head up - identity formation isn't just an individual thing. It's a group thing too - with the primary group in your life being your family. Your son's identity is as the son and younger brother of a sister. His identity formed growing up having a sister - that never changes so don't ask him to do mental somersaults over it. For me, I dread when people make polite conversation saying 'do you have any brothers and sisters?' Its an innocent question but for me it's no loaded. What people are actually trying to do when they ask the question is to relate to you - they are asking 'are you like me?' in terms of their own family identity. Or having children they are trying to relate their children to their family - they are saying stuff like 'oh God it's crap having an older girl and younger boy, I was X in the dynamic when I was a child'. But for me it's no longer an easy question to answer - particularly in polite company. I face a choice of being honest and trying to explain it (often not knowing their beliefs or politics on the subject) or lying feeling it acutely - it makes it hard to make that connection. So I feel lost and like my reality isn't valid / acceptable. It's a minefield. And I do think it's important, because his identity - individual and as a unit, matters. He was your son and all of a sudden he's almost got competition with another 'son'. Not to mention how screwed up seeing my brother as a woman felt. It was like looking in some kind of twisted mirror. It didn't do my self asteem a lot of good. I wondered if that's what I looked like to others. I can't explain it - it mattered to me.

Having my mum side with my brother and justify behaviour which under any other circumstances was appalling was awful. It alienated me. Mainly because the worst attacks were about DH being transphobic (DH didn't even know my brother was trans at this point, so to say it was an unfair accusation is putting it mildly!). My mum said it was fine for DH to be treated appallingly. She ended up losing me. We are just about on speaking terms again at this stage.

And my mum hasn't got much of a relationship left with my brother for it.

I think that's one of the worst things - you can't 'save' your daughter. You can focus on the relationship you have that's still not in tatters. So do that. Your daughter has to largely figure this out herself. She needs to know you are loved and you care but can't make everything about her and this because you will lose a lot more and its unlikely to alter her mind - because that's not how cults work. You can't free someone from a cult by joining it yourself. You can only help them realise the problem by encouraging them to ask the questions of themselves.

Look after yourself. And your family. You count too. And there's no guilt and shame in recognising your own needs or those of other members of the family. Your daughter will either come around or she won't. Ultimately she has the right to make terrible decisions. As much as that sucks. You can still be there but she's 18, so you can only do so much. As she keeps pointing out herself. That's what 18 year olds do - reject their parents to assert themselves and find their own identity. It's rare that you find it age 18 though and that's what you need to keep in your head.

Just position yourself to be the to pick up the pieces should she need it.

None of this is easy or fair. On anyone.

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 10:59

Great post @RedToothBrush Sorry about your brother.

Moomoola · 27/01/2023 16:45

Thank you redtoothbrush I feel for your family and you that’s so sad.
none of it is easy or fair that’s true.

unfortunately I need more advice! The school called and told me they’d talked to dd. The teacher said she was happy to go for a coffee with dd and I if dd wanted it.
dd wants her passport to fly to a gig in the uk that I’d even helped her arrange. The teacher said I could give it to her.
I called dd who seemed happy to chat and told me the teacher had called, and to my utter suprise asked if she could meet me with the teacher as she is a bit stressed at seeing me.
wtaf?
what’s going on? When I have met her she’s been fine and I’ve been friendly and helpful, told her we love and will support.
Dh thinks she is being persueded we will shout ( this happened before). He is wondering if by having a mediator we are somehow entering a pathway where she and x can say she needs accommodation as we are so horrible.
dd said CAHMS will offer her anything like help with housing and college.
her friend has got a nice flat after her parents were apparently stressed and bullying.

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Moomoola · 27/01/2023 16:46

We are in the uk, we are in Scotland. Great!

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Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:42

I called dd who seemed happy to chat and told me the teacher had called, and to my utter suprise asked if she could meet me with the teacher as she is a bit stressed at seeing me.
wtaf?

I wouldn't trust that teacher. If she wants the passport, she can come to the house and talk with you.

Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:43

This is the escalation process to pull away from you and I'm so sorry it's happening

KatMcBundleFace · 27/01/2023 19:56

Completely inappropriate of the teacher. I would be arranging a meeting with the head.

MichelleScarn · 27/01/2023 20:20

I absolutely wouldn't trust that teacher. Have an acquaintance who is a teacher and proudly stated at an event was at how she was a 'secret keeper' or some other bilge term for pupils re supporting trans identities and hiding this from parents and supporting them in their journey....another time and place it would scream safe guarding.. not so in Sturgeons Scotland.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/01/2023 21:21

That was wrong of the teacher.

Perhaps tell her her passport is at home, and no one will shout at her if and when she wants to get it.

Anactor · 27/01/2023 21:40

The teacher is offering to meet you and DD outside school?

No. That’s really unprofessional. It should be a meeting inside school with the Deputy/Head aware of it.

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2023 23:04

Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:42

I called dd who seemed happy to chat and told me the teacher had called, and to my utter suprise asked if she could meet me with the teacher as she is a bit stressed at seeing me.
wtaf?

I wouldn't trust that teacher. If she wants the passport, she can come to the house and talk with you.

Inappropriate.

Why is the teacher proposing meeting a parent but more importantly a child outside school.

That's overstepping boundaries and reason to be raising safeguarding concerns about over familiarity between teacher and student.

That smells really off to me.

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2023 23:07

If your daughter wants her passport she needs to be a big girl and see her mummy and deal with like an adult rather than running off to the teacher accusing you of god knows what.

The teacher is exposing themselves to all sort her by over stepping. And you should, quite rightly, be asking wtf is going on with that level of over familiarity

Moomoola · 28/01/2023 09:03

Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:43

This is the escalation process to pull away from you and I'm so sorry it's happening

Thank you. It all seems very friendly and helpful. But yes, very odd too.
I will call her today and tell her to come and get it or at least ask what’s going on. Was a bit shocked before, and of course watching every word in case I say something wrong. Called her ‘daughter’ without realising in that phone call. Bad Mummy.
delphinium would you mind expanding on that so I can figure out ways to combat? At the moment I feel like I’m in a real life game of chess and I don’t know the rules. We feel like every teeny hopeful step we make, we get massively walloped. If that makes sense!
im googling but not getting very far. It does sound like a script is being followed. There must be a website with a counter script!

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Moomoola · 28/01/2023 09:09

She also wants her new name on her exam certificate. I asked the school if they could encourage her to think about it but the ( same) teacher said dd will have given it a lot of thought and she is nearly 18.
? I don’t know why it concerns me that she wants to do this, but it does. I thought because in a few years time it may be seen as a bit daft and stop her getting jobs. But also it is corroborating her new identity and heading to a gender recognition certificate, maybe. That’s what Dh thinks.

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Moomoola · 28/01/2023 09:13

Equalities act 2010 ( from gender intelligence leaflet)
This act makes it clear that this includes protection to young trans people in goods and services, including schools, clubs, healthcare etc. Therefore any school that does not take in to account the needs of young trans people and make steps to ensure they are treated fairly is in breach of this act.
o.m.g.

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beastlyslumber · 28/01/2023 09:24

I wish I knew where I could point to you for help with this, OP. It does sound like they are following a script. I don't know what your legal rights are in the situation or how you could practically stop your DD from following this path.

I've heard interviews with detransitioned girls where they've said they wished someone had told them the truth, tried to stop them, asked them about their trauma etc. Even for those who had that and didn't listen, they appreciated those people later down the line. I think maybe all you can do is let her know that you love her as she is, that you'll love her even if she changes her name/appearance, you'll love her if she takes hormones or has surgery, you'll love her if she changes her mind. But you don't want her to be harmed, emotionally or physically. Does she want babies later on? Does she have plans for the future in terms of career, travel etc? Could you maybe talk about some of those things with her, try to get her to think about things other than her gender?

Would you be able to pay for her to see a therapist to talk about her mental health unrelated to the gender stuff? Maybe if she had someone who was listening and exploring her trauma she would find some more clarity in herself. Obviously you would need to find someone who isn't just going to affirm and push her further down this path.

I wish I knew the answers, OP. Sending you love and strength.

HagoftheNorth · 28/01/2023 09:43

No advice, just 🍫💐🍫

ScrollingLeaves · 28/01/2023 09:57

Moomoola · Today 09:13
Equalities act 2010 ( from gender intelligence leaflet)
This act makes it clear that this includes protection to young trans people in goods and services, including schools, clubs, healthcare etc. Therefore any school that does not take in to account the needs of young trans people and make steps to ensure they are treated fairly is in breach of this act.
o.m.g.

The Cass report makes clear that affirming children is not neutral but potentially harmful. The needs of your daughter include the need not to be affirmed.

A Teachers’ Guide to the Cass Review Interim Report – A Teachers' Guide to Sex and Gender

teachersguidetosexandgender.org/2022/07/06/a-teachers-guide-to-the-cass-review-interim-report/

Dr David Bell who was at the Tavistock also reiterates this though his experience was related to puberty blockers etc which aren’t relevant to you.

Gender identity treatment needs greater caution | Transgender | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/27/gender-identity-treatment-needs-greater-caution

I suppose it would be difficult to get your daughter to read this because she is in a oppositional state of mind, but it is very interesting
lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?s=r

Moomoola · 28/01/2023 16:14

Thanks all. Depression setting in. Dh and I arguing.

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princessleah1 · 28/01/2023 16:22

It sounds like your dh needs to be away from wherever you meet your daughter, he's not managing his feelings.
The gig sounds great, hopefully it will broaden her horizons a bit.

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2023 16:41

Moomoola · 28/01/2023 16:14

Thanks all. Depression setting in. Dh and I arguing.

I liken trans idology to an emotional hand grenade being lobbed into a family.

It totally destroys families. Its certainly not a neutral thing. Its also why I stress about identities not being individual but also being on a group / relational level too.

But I do think that once someone hits 18, whilst there is this urge to 'do something' to 'save' someone from it, you simply can't.

None of this is being, in any way, looked at. And it should be.

Moomoola · 28/01/2023 16:54

Thanks princessleah true. I’ve wanted to take both kids there for years.
redtoothbrush I’d certainly agree with you there. I’m sorry for the damage it’s done to your family, it’s sooo sooo nasty. I’m sure your mum would love it if you can build bridges?
Dh stressed and wants a cat. DS says that won’t bring dd back. I’m the bad guy because I don’t know if a cats a good idea or not. Dh had one as a kid, I just see something else to think about, so I’m to blame.
hand grenade is about right.

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