Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

Which any male self-identifying as a woman can generally attend.

Some seem to refuse to get it.

Well interesting you still can't engage with what I actually asked and was saying just going on about state of and safeguarding
I do understand safeguarding, and of course it's important - is it just now you raise it when trans people are having swim sessions though or what about the every day mixed sessions too?

Didn't the Yaniv individual get involved in something similar in Canada and it was shut down pdq because there were concerns over the fact that parents of children taking part in the swim were specifically told they had to stay away?

Is it usual to hold events for a mixed age group of adults and children at which parents are prevented from accompanying their children, and the adults attending have not all been DBS checked?

Are parents banned from them as well?

@RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella I think trans-only swimming sessions should be allowed. Do you think that women only sessions, excluding trans women should also be supported too?

Honestly, if parents were banned to attending with their child to any swim session, I would give it a swerve.
I might feel comfortable allowing my ten year old swim with me but I might not.
Do you know of mixed swim sessions where parents are actually not allowed to attend?

You quote my post which set out the problems with this. Then didn't address them. I'm not going to repeat myself. My points stand.

Allowing children to swim unaccompanied by an adult is not the same thing as banning parents from being present.
It just says poolside - where does it say they can't be present? I take that as they can't be poolside but can be present in say spectators gallery, that's the way it's always been when I took mine to swimming lessons.
Don't see why it would be any different in this session.
Obviously if they were telling you to leave them and go home/shopping, then no chance.
Oh and teenagers go swimming without you anyway

Well that's highly unlikely isn't it? 🙄Can you name any events where women seeking to protect women's rights and child safeguarding have... well, tried banging on the windows, drowning out people trying to talk about their experience to a group that met to listen to them, screaming at babies, drawing obscene and threatening messages and pictures on the pavements, setting off smoke bombs or kettling anyone?

No. That would be anti social behaviours that the TQ+ lobby specialise in.

It just says poolside - where does it say they can't be present? I take that as they can't be poolside but can be present in say spectators gallery, that's the way it's always been when I took mine to swimming lessons.

Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring.

Of course it's the bloody same. If a whole bunch of adults advertised a session expressing inviting children but saying parents are not allowed to attend, it's exactly the same red flag.

Safeguarding doesn't give a shit if the person is trans or not.

So RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella do you think children should be dropped off and left in the company of stranger adults while their parents are sent off home or shopping?

Normal swimming sessions are mixed ages though? Of course it's normal for mixed ages to swim together, it always has been that way.
Lifeguards/staff I'd have thought would have all necessary checks, people swimming in the pool though not so much - unless you mean you want everyone who goes swimming to have a check as well just in case there's a young person in the pool with them too? Not sure how that would work if so!

Lots of complaints about trans women accessing women's only sessions, and I'm interested, has anyone ever actually experienced this? Seeing as only an estimated 1% of the population are trans (including both trans men and trans women) I'd think that this happens extremely rarely, such that it's easily avoided if you aren't comfortable.

I swim and I've never knowingly experienced this at a women's only session, not that I'd be bothered if I did but that's just me.

I think it's good that trans/non binary etc sessions are a thing in certain areas but it's a shame that they can't even give out the location of these events until booking, which is sadly indicative of the attitude towards trans people.

yes Datun especially if anyone can use any changing room. .

Is anyone else reminded of the time trans pioneer Jonathan Yaniv, a man ahead of his time in so many ways, tried to organise a topless pool party for trans youth aged 13-30?

Are the lifeguards going to be non-binary/trans/inter-sex?

And don't forget that the men only pool remains wholly male!

Normal swimming sessions aren't organised by a specific bunch of adults, expressly inviting underage children, (and where does it say over eights only?) but unequivocally telling the parents of these children that they are not allowed to be there.

what's wrong with you that you can't see that this is a safeguarding nightmare?

Surely they’ve contradicted themselves in there? Carers welcome but parents and guardians may not attend? Surely you could just say that as a parent you are your child’s carer and therefore are of course welcome to attend.

Ok, where has it said that, though?
It clearly says poolside, which I have already answered as I see that as means still allowed in building, in spectator gallery as usually happens, as I've already said if they mean go home/shopping instead then no chance, wouldn't be ok with that.
Not applicable to teenagers as they usually go swimming without you anyway depending on age, 14 15 year olds definitely do

Just found a thread about that.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3649380--Alarming-trans-activist-s-top-optional-youth-swim-event-not-cleared-to-proceed-yet

www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/jessica-yaniv-langley-topless-swim-trans-activist-bc-1944804

Also a previous thread about the Rainbow Project and their mixed age swim sessions

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4472518-Child-protection-crises-in-NI-Stonewall-partner-The-Rainbow-Project-others

Perhaps women's groups would like to also rent the pool for natal women only swimming sessions to similarly gauge need/requirement for these sessions.

They're not allowed to. This is the whole point of threads like this and women's anger: male people insist on identifying into those groups or calling it discrimination, when their presence makes the group mixed sex and instantly therefore makes it inaccessible to 'natal women' (women) who cannot access mixed sex spaces.

It becomes a conflict between the right of male people to have their chosen self identity/legal fiction validated without boundaries regardless of impact on others

and the right of female people to have equality of access when they are not able or willing to pretend to believe that a male person is female if they declare it so.

The obvious answer, yes, would be to create mixed sex 'women's' swims, and 'natal female' (or whatever these would be permitted to be called since believe me this would depend on what male people were prepared to allow, with them having the casting vote because sex based power is another thing that can't be pretended away) swims. Different facilities available so inclusive to all. But the TQ+ political lobby will not permit this, and forces it constantly to 'inclusiveness' to males which in fact then excludes women from women's resources. So not inclusive in the slightest. In terms of inclusion it's a major #fail

There are loads of women only swimming sessions advertised round here, quite rightly. You’re making up a problem that doesn’t exist.

I am sorry, but you're missing some information there.

Those women only swims will be inclusive of any male who wishes to access on the grounds of identification, so in fact mixed sex. Many women who previously could only access single sex swims have now left those swims. We have only anecdotal evidence of this (MNetters have explained the direct impact and loss of access here) because no record is made of how many females have been bounced out of access and equality in any resources, in order to permit male people freedom of access to all resources. This is the fundamental issue. It is a binary sex based one of male people's living life without boundaries at the expense of female equality, access and inclusion.