Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

Yep I agree. Sane as a school booking it or for a birthday party.

No problem with this except for the unaccompanied children (that's not okay). I think if the pool won't organise women only sessions, that's a problem with the pool manager/local authority as this seems to be a private event organised by a Trans organisation.

Itsbiasedhere · Today 10:15
Try being an actual man under 60 you get virtually no special time at the pool. Women/trans/OAP only sessions. It seems the only group you can legally exclude is younger men.

Gosh how dreadful, those poor men who have worry everyday that they’ll be sexually assaulted or harassed by those pesky women.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered

Remarkable that this had to be stated out loud 🤨.

Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

Not that I would ever let my children anywhere near an event that encourages children to be deliberately separated from parents with such lack of safeguarding, but if I was to let my child go, I would just say I was trans. Or “intersex”. How would they say I wasn’t?

No one ever thinks these things through when it comes to safeguarding, do they?

It's because trans women are allowed in womens session and defend their right to do so.

As usual the issues are multiple.

Carers can sit poolside
Parents if under age kids cannot

Why?

The session is not in itself a bad thing. But I bet that no groups of women will either try to infiltrate it and then act in a manner that sacred the legal participants

I also bet that no group of women will stand outside with signs calling the legal participants fascists, murderers etc.

I'd place good money on there being no such restraint if a single sex, wen only session were to be advertised in the same joyous manner!

What have you done about this other than complain at women?

Go and set something up. Like women had to do. Raise interest and awareness. Start a group. Book a slot. And discuss why male people of this age need a slot to themselves because your post here seems to just be piqued that everyone else has something 'special' denied to you. Where those 'special' slots are things like providing actual access because those swimmers may have access issues and barriers that you don't. Otherwise it may come across as 'when do I get a turn in your wheelchair/with your guide dog/gosh its so unfair'.

I'm all for groups with access needs having accessible sessions and their needs met.

Of course the irony is that TQ+ political groups spend a lot of time depriving women of accessible swims (much on the principles of the poster above) to meet their own needs while shouting loudly about how much they don't care about those women and deriding them for... well. Being female, largely. And so are not going to get much sympathy here in wanting what many vigorously strip women of under the TQ+ banner.

WILL NOBODY THINK OF THE POOR MENZ? THEY HAVE NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL.

Sacred = scared

Apologies

The lifeguards will most likely be teenagers. And probably not trans.

the welcomed carers do not need to be trans.

so why specifically state parents of children are not allowed?

this is absolutely a safeguarding of children issue.

amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jan/12/sydney-women-only-ocean-pool-under-fire-over-transgender-policy

And parents not being allowed pool side is not creepy. It's for trans or non binary people only. There's lifeguards there so I don't get the issue

It’s the lack of swimming supervision that’s the issue. Any event that wants children to be separated from their parents to hang around with a bunch of adults they don’t know in private is a red flag. What safeguarding measures are in place?

It’s not*

In a normal swimming session, children 8 and over are allowed to swim without their parents present. I wonder if they are actually allowing under 8s to swim.

It's not for trans people only. Anyone could go - there is no way for anyone to know if a person is trans, nonbinary, etc. It's an open swim session.

Inviting children to swim with adults and insisting that they be unaccompanied by parents or guardians - obviously that's creepy and contrary to safeguarding guidelines.

But clearly any parent can self-id into the pool.

This jumped out at me also, no way would I agree to this.

Sadly about 15 years ago I sat with a LA committee where demographics using the publicly funded leisure facilities (all tied into health aims, community resources aims and targets, 'hard to reach' groups who didn't seem to take equal access of the resources made available, etc etc) were considered, and it was clearly identified that certain groups of women were not accessing gyms and leisure centre facilities much at all, which was obviously an issue for many reasons, not least that those women were paying the same in taxes for those resources to exist for their use.

Research done on this discovered that one of the biggest barriers to access was that those women could not undress, shower or swim where men were present. Hence the creation of women-only swims. They were well used, and access and equality increased, leading to all kinds of good outcomes.

All now lost of course, because of the need to 'include' male TQ+ people who wish to be validated through being given access to those women only swims. Which has effectively excluded many of the women those swims were set up for.
All benefits lost to women, inequality and inaccessibility thrown back a couple of decades, but a small group of TQ+ activists are politically thrilled that male people have been permitted to destroy women's access.

Well, no. No responsible parent would.

The separating kids bit should be reported to social services/ Council safeguarding/ charity commission so it can be investigated same as any other concern. We need to start reporting red flags through the system the same way Amy safeguarding issue is flagged. Try to be pro trans but for safeguarding if you want anyone who relieves the report to do anything about it though!

I will do this today, it's a good, sensible idea.

Cisgender parents must wait outside? Is that in case they are mean and transphobic? But 'not all cisgenders are like that', it's just 'paranoia based on no data' etc etc

I don’t have an issue with this, actually think it’s a good thing to encourage more spaces for trans people, if that’s what they want?

There should just generally be more exclusive spaces, for women, for disabled people, for the elderly etc. Some shops and soft plays have times for ND people, we should demand to see more of this. It only needs to be the odd few hours across the week for various different groups but wouldn’t it make a difference to inclusivity!

In terms of the under 18s safeguarding issue… plenty of kids use the swimming pools without their parents present or with parents in the cafe etc. I’m thinking teenagers not like 7/8 year olds of course.
No parent is going to let their 10 year old into a pool unsupervised, trans or not trans. It’s a drowning / safety risk first and foremost surely? In reality if these organisers are not allowing straight (as in CIS, used for description purposes only here) parents pool side then surely they will not end up with many under 16s, the vast majority of parents don’t let their kids go to public pools alone these days?

It is really strange how trans people have this monopoly on diversity, we rarely see exclusive spaces for anyone else. If we could all jump on this and expand spaces for others who need it then great!

The event itself is fine.
Saying ´open to all ages’ but ´parents must sit in the changing rooms’ has absolutely not been thought through. Either include parents or set a minimum age - 16 seems reasonable as this is an event with adult participants and there’s no one officially on any kind of safeguarding duty. They could hold a separate event for under trans identifying under 16s with no adult participants and properly DBS checked chaperones/organizers. And sure, you can exclude parents if it’s an event specifically for kids/teens (who are signed up in advance and who know how to swim) with organizers in loco parentis.
The lifeguards are there to prevent drownings, not to watch out for the wellbeing of minors outside of the pool.
What are the organizers planning to do when a 7 year old trans-identifying kid turns up with their parent who was planning on saying ´I’m their carer/I’m non binary’? What about the seven year old in bloody armbands who can’t swim properly? I expect they were counting on no one that young turning up, so they may as well put a sensible minimum age on it. Also won’t it be odd and uncomfortable for any teens having to walk past the cisgender parents staring into space in the changing rooms if they want to pop to the loo? Having anyone hanging around the changing rooms is weird whatever the context.

Do agree also that anyone demanding parents are not present is a red flag though, nothing to do with trans or gender or otherwise.

It’s safeguarding 101 isn’t it.

Oh give over. Men don't need special sessions because they take over all the other ones.