Woman mistaken for a man and challenged

[h2Oo]

Okay, so I'd like some good old reasoning on this as I appreciate a lot of you are more insightful than me!

I believe men have 0 place in women's toilets, changing families or women only spaces.

But this tripped me up... what do I say to this? It popped up on twitter and I don't know what to argument would be

This woman was questioned because she looks too masculine. But she is indeed a biological woman through and through

www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man

What is the answer? I just don't know

twitter.com/ayocaesar/status/1608015301731393536?s=46&t=4EE7Qj-CQ4GBNWaPMX_Zdg

Link to the twitter comments

Does their name badge not say Taylor and that they use They/Them pronouns?

It's a very suspect story

Yes. However it does raise the question that if you look too masculine, is it okay for other women to challenge you?

read a bit more - this is a person who identifies as a they/them and has a male name on their NHS badge. They purposely present as male. They even implied in the article that having a mastectomy was great.

Yes they do and yes it is.

Are you saying that if a woman thinks there’s a man in the toilets she should ignore it just in case its a masculine looking woman?
The person in this story is being disingenuous. There is another news article about them with photos - the person gives a man’s name and looks even more male than on the tweet photo.

This is a favourite approach of activists who would like to end women being permitted single sex spaces: the idea being that appealing to their niceness and kindness by 'oh this poor woman badly treated' will make them give up and accept men in case of accidentally distressing a woman.

If this actually does happen as opposed to being a useful rumour or a set up situation, then the fault is actually on the part of activists and the men who have forced entry to women's spaces without care or respect for the impact upon women, and forced women to begin to be anxious about who is in their spaces.

There's kind of two responses to this: do we start to consider why masculine presenting people are causing fear, distress and strong reactions in women in women only spaces and perhaps do something about listening to them? The inclusive and kind thing to do?

Or do we try and compliance train the women to just be distressed quietly, so that men can crack on with doing whatever they feel like?

'I was playing with my breasts like a stress ball' - sorry lost me at that one

In answer to the question of is it ok to question- yes of course it is.

It's a shame, but women do not want men in the places where they're not fully dressed, or are otherwise particularly vulnerable. It shows remarkable bravery to challenge someone you perceive as a possible threat to your safety. It's very heartening that some women are still courageous enough to do so even in the face of the massive weight of extreme condemnation by anti-women activists like Ash Sarkar.

Oh I see. How enlightening.

Taylor is her surname. It says so in the article.
The pronouns bit seems to be coming from a screenshot of a photo that was in the article that had all details blurred out, but then suddenly in some "GC" tweets there's magically pronouns on it.
So where the pronoun bit is coming from is not clear at all as there doesn't seem to be a source.

Why would they have just their surname on their badge?

It's a shame that so many females like this hate their own sex so much, that they want to destroy female only spaces and rights as much as the males do, without realizing that they are being complicit in their own oppression and used by men.

It's genderists that have caused this nonsense.

I mean, 'gender critical' activists are the one who are most wanting to be toilet police and as Kathleen Stock mentioned GNC people are 'acceptable collateral' in the GC campaign against trans people...so I imagine most people here would be approving of people like Tiffany getting harassed.

If people felt safe and secure then they would not challenge anyone. That's why it never used to happen

But when you frighten people by invading their territory, they will fight back and if that means a women being challenged that's what will happen more and more

Most women would understand that and would laugh it off

It's not a gender thing you see it's a sex thing but when you muddle them and pretend they are the same people get confused and scared

However it does raise the question that if you look too masculine, is it okay for other women to challenge you?

Yes. Unequivocal yes.

It has happened to me several times. As soon as I responded, sometimes even before I spoke, the challenger recognised that I am female and apologised.

No big deal for me, but very important for women.

I don't think women here approve of anyone getting harassed. But if male people insist on forcing their way into female only spaces (which is harassing) and have no regard for the impact, fear, distress, lack of privacy and dignity and exclusion that they cause by doing so? In the belief that their desire to be in that space is more important than the impact they have on others?

They can hardly be surprised that female people have begun to get defensive and suspicious about who is who in their spaces. To view this as bad behaviour is rather like criticising someone for asking you to stop stamping on their foot.

Like..they're AFAB non-binary..how does this change the story? Do you approve of harassment of people in toilets? Like normally you're demanding strict separation of facilities by birth sex...

I have broad shoulders and have never felt like I look very feminine. My family always joked about me looking like a "big man". As an adult though I found confidence just being myself and found my own style, after pretty bad self esteem growing up.

In very recent times I have felt self conscious about whether I look feminine enough, and feel fearful of being challenged using ladies loo. I felt awful when some security guards loudly called me sir and sniggered. I blame the gender nonsense for focusing on a stereotype about how a woman looks. I am supportive of single sex spaces.

If a person feels harnessed in the toilets by someone apparently of the opposite sex , you are totally right that shouldn't happen

If the person feeling harassed challenges the apparent bully that is also totally fine - we should all be able to stand up for ourselves against bullies and wrong doing

If the apparent bully was actually innocent then that could hurt their feelings -but that's no more hurtful than what the first person felt

If the apparent bully was in fact a man - that's very bad
If it was someone hoping to be challenged , making sure they looked wrong to get a social media story that is also very bad

Now I don't know what happened because I wasn't there but the assumption that women should not challenge apparent wrong doing is truly enabling evil - if not in this case then at a future time

We all have a duty to challenge wrong doing

Personally I don't mind who uses which loo, happy to share communal sinks etc with anyone as long as they are not being threatening, mean, or intimidating. I would like loos to be designed with two entry/exitdoors to the communal bit, or sinks within individual cubicles opening onto public spaces for everyone's safety. I think making loos safe should be the priority over and above who pees where. how awful to need to pee and feel you have nowhere to go. I would never question anyone in a loo for simply using it. But I would say something if people were behaving badly in there and intimidating or threatening others.

Surely the point (for the third time) is that male people have pushed female people to have to be wary and concerned with whether the person in front of them in a space where said female does not feel safe to be with male people, is masculine presenting or a male.

In this case, a female but presenting quite intentionally as masculine. It would be nice if some TQ+ people could find a bit of respect and compassion for female people and the need for single sex female only spaces. It would not take much reading to educate themselves as to what the issues are and how they could help female people as opposed to make life harder and more inaccessible for them. #bekind

Welcome to Mumsnet OP. Well done for finding this board. Are you "as GC as they come...?

I’ve never understand the tra gotcha of showing women who have taken a shed load of medication and had surgery and ther for look male will make women uncomfortable and therefore toilets shouldn’t be single sex.

it’s so odd. The whole point is BASED on the point that women don’t want people who have male secondary sex characteristics in their single sex spaces. Well exactly.

my argument in response is - well it’s very rare for a women to fully pass as male when properly interacted with (although I do think trans men pass more than transwomen)

and secondly - if they acknowledge women may be uncomfortable with trans men well then they are by logic acknowledging women will be uncomfortable with actual men. I think the reason they don’t see the logical flaw is some delusion that transwomen pass. They very rarely do.