Woman mistaken for a man and challenged

[h2Oo]

Okay, so I'd like some good old reasoning on this as I appreciate a lot of you are more insightful than me!

I believe men have 0 place in women's toilets, changing families or women only spaces.

But this tripped me up... what do I say to this? It popped up on twitter and I don't know what to argument would be

This woman was questioned because she looks too masculine. But she is indeed a biological woman through and through

www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man

What is the answer? I just don't know

Because there’s no evidence it actually prevents sexual assault? So if there is no benefit, then why should gender conforming women be encouraged to challenge virtually always GNC women in the toilets?

I haven’t suggested it was illegal. I’ve said it’s policing by vigilante women. It’s akin to challenging people parking in disabled spaces and asking to see their blue badge.

@Onnabugeisha

I haven’t suggested it was illegal. I’ve said it’s policing by vigilante women. It’s akin to challenging people parking in disabled spaces and asking to see their blue badge.

Your analogy would only be correct if you were talking about people identifying as being disabled (and not actually disabled), and wanting to use the disabled space that was created for actual disabled people.

People who identify as being disabled (but are not disabled) shouldn't be entitled to use something that was created for those who actually need it.

So in other words, if we apply the logic you use in all these threads, you actually think it's okay for non-disabled people to use disabled parking spaces and disabled toilets.

What evidence can there be of a prevented assault? Man challenged, leaves, no assault takes place-according to you that is no evidence.

Anyway, I bid you a good night @Onnabugeisha, and salute all the women who do not accept that men should not be challenged in women's toilets. A vast majority of GNC women seem fine with that, and fully comprehend why it happens. Perhaps, one day, so will you.

Also, vigilant is not the same as vigilante, as they often say on this board-words have meanings.

Hell yes it is ok to challenge people parking in disabled spaces without a blue badge. In fact, its actively policed and enforced with fines. Thats why you generally see only blue badges in disabled spaces. Its a pity the same courtesy couldnt be extended to parent and child spaces where every man and his dog identifies as a parent and takes away a valuable space.

The point I'm trying to make in a very roundabout way, is that people have lost respect for others, and unless a behaviour is challenged and policed by others, it is not adhered to.

"It’s akin to challenging people parking in disabled spaces and asking to see their blue badge."

Which anyone with a blue badge is entitled to do. Women have a right to single sex spaces. It is no one's right to give this away. Even if they don't like to be challenged. And women's dignity is of infinite value and doesn't have to be quantified to make men stay away.

Finally, what you actually need is a foi request of police recorded assaults reported in toilets of public spaces, irrespective prosecution status. It's a great idea, thanks. I'll make sure my mp gets an unadulterated copy.

Crime stats barely scratch the surface of the figures of those who would do harm to women and to children. If people were aware of the real number of male sex offenders around they would never want their children to use public loos.

So I understand where the desire to question comes from. I disagree on the sentiment though that it's a tiny bit of hurt feelings in exchange for the safeguarding benefits. To challenge women incorrectly is a big deal to me because it plays into the shit idea of a woman being about superficial things. Put on some high heels and lipstick and you are a woman. It's allowing the TRA agenda to push us into treating women badly, questioning their womanhood.

I used to always wear ultra feminine clothing to try counteract not being womanly/delicate enough. I spent years in heeled shoes that were small. Now my size 7 feet are very comfortable in trainers or sturdy boots. I'm not setting out to present as GNC.

Defend your right to challenge in the toilets but don't belittle the experience of those who you have challenged. Especially not because they have told you not to worry or said it doesn't matter afterwards! We women are pretty well conditioned to make others feel better. If you feel you must challenge at least acknowledge this is a shit impact on women.

Well that rather proves my point then. If a passer by had said "no, you can't go in there" it could have prevented the assault.

Of course none of this would be necessary if men (however they identify) reliably kept out of women's spaces. You don't appear to have anything to say on that aspect.

We might have left the EU, but I think that I'll continue to apply the precautionary principle rather than take a laissez-faire approach.

You prove to me that never challenging anyone in a toilet is 100% safe, and I'll agree to banning it.

And your talk of "vigilantes" "policing" is utterly ridiculous. Politely asking someone "are you sure that you're in the right place?" is nothing like mob justice.

Sorry if this has been mentioned but one part of the story is confusing me. They mention 13 out of their 23 lymph node’s were affected but the human body actually had hundreds of lymph nodes. It’s a strange story.

Oooh do I get to do the Thing? I do don't I!

"Woman here"

As a woman, with respect for other women and the distress, anxiety and suspicion they now have to deal with in single sex spaces due to the absolute inability of male people to have interest in or compassion for anything but their own immediate needs?

I'm perfectly happy for other women and girls to challenge me as often as they need to, and to provide reassurance that I am in fact a woman. My voice and reaction (not shouting "respect me!" or waving a sword around or threatening to rape or kerb stomp them just as an example) will do it in seconds. I rarely dress or present in the 'approved' manner according to the stereotypes provided by males that are apparently 'living as a woman'.

Very happy to ensure and support the comfort and emotional safety of other women in a single sex space. Delighted to. It's a shame male people have chosen to make this necessary but male people apparently are gonna male.

So another woman who got herself in the newspaper with a hyperbolic story about how hurtful and frightening it was to be asked now and then whether she was in the right place turns out to be a transactivist.

Quelle surprise!

Meanwhile, there are exaggerations throughout this thread, where asking the question is hyperbolically described as harrassment, where the women asking are called angry women, with no evidence of the anger anywhere, and now women are vigilantes and even to ask is illegal.

I personally think it is unlikely these challenges have increased. I was asked whether I was in the right space thirty or forty years ago, as a teenager with short hair. It happens. My butch lesbian daughter told me she has never been challenged, presumably because It’s actually more acceptable for men to be in women’s spaces than it used to be and the social contract that has pushed for this change, that tells us that to challenge is rude, still means that most don’t.

To challenge women incorrectly is a big deal to me because it plays into the shit idea of a woman being about superficial things.

Which is being exacerbated by transactivism as well as by consumerism. Feminism was never about pushing female stereotypes and if society has gone backwards and is now less tolerant of difference, it’s not the fault of radical feminism, nor of the women who want single sex spaces to return to being single sex.

Yes. Rather.

it is always interesting to see people show us who they really are (usually garden variety misogynists) by crowing about the distress of women and girls in these situations.

Those doing just never understand their hatred is there on display with their glee.

You mean this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4691390-girl-got-a-new-haircut-father-shocked-by-the-things-strangers-now-say-to-her?page=1

I think you seem to have forgotten your persistent distortions of what was being said on that thread. Shall we go back and remind you of just how you twisted it all around, and shall we also remind you that you started accusing people of child abuse?

the fault is actually on the part of activists and the men who have forced entry to women's spaces without care or respect for the impact upon women, and forced women to begin to be anxious about who is in their spaces.

yes, exactly! And this is the broader problem- it’s not transwomen we fear, but the general atmosphere of not being able to question men in our spaces.

I am a shoe size 8 woman. The pushback to those trying to frame woman as ass and tits, is a strong as the pushback against women using the discomfort of the challenge to let men walk in female toilets.
Not talking about how this can be uncomfortable for those challenged should take nothing away from the fact that the particular woman in this story was correctly challenged and she had no right to give away the space because of her discomfort. using female politeness to cause discomfort until the implicit yes looks like it will never stop. Knowing what is coming, we should not self censor, We should no longer mince our words, We should no longer be decent.

if society has gone backwards and is now less tolerant of difference, it’s not the fault of radical feminism, nor of the women who want single sex spaces to return to being single sex.
I agree it's not the fault of radical feminism but I still don't see challenging non comforming women as to whether they are actually a woman as part of the solution. I think in balancing the harm caused on challenging/not challenging the harm has been underestimated on several levels. And just answering safe guarding isn't sufficient. Safeguarding matters but not every action is justified because of safeguarding. That as a principle quickly falls apart.

They are the axiliary lymph nodes, the ones around the breast and in the armpit area. If further spread is suspected then they will remove all of the axillary nodes, 23 is about right.

On that though, I dislike this narrative that when a woman has a mastectomy, suddenly everyone starts thinking she is a bloke (abd the subtext to that which is 'therefore we need to allow men access to womens spaces). It's totally false and kind of offensive to women who have had this surgery, who have been continuing to use women's provision for a long time with absolutely no issue. Most of the time, particularly in a situation like a public toilet where you might be wearing a coat etc as well, no one would even notice.

Par for the course though Ddraig. On the thread started by that poster, the degree of catastrophising done when people clearing said ‘ask if they were in the correct toilet for their sex’ was rather epic.

I encourage readers to go and look for themselves at that thread to see the tactics that are used to shame women for asking anyone, even tweens, if they are in the toilet corresponding to their sex.

Oh! While you are here. I will ask again, for the third time in case you keep missing it.

Do you think it is respectful for a male who knows that their presence may cause distress to female people to continue to use a single sex facility? After they have found out that their presence may cause distress to any female in that space?

It would be great for a person who had claimed spokespersonship for their community (as per your previous post stating just that) to answer that question finally.

Or will you just ignore it again?

Well this thread played out exactly as I expected

new poster wondering what to oh so much about this soooo very difficult problem, usual suspects appear like the bats signal has gone out to say it just proves you can’t tell (even to it’s a woman who is a TRA activist) & therefore women should accept men in their spaces

are the screenshots on twitter yet?

I still don't see challenging non comforming women as to whether they are actually a woman as part of the solution.

I’m very sceptical that this has increased at all, frankly. Nor do I buy the suggestion that women who know that men are not women are suddenly challenging people they wouldn’t have challenged before.

I believe many of the women on this board do not conform to gendered expectations, and certainly many prominent women in the current women’s movement don’t adhere to gender stereotypes. It’s unlikely that most of us would make this error.

As far as I am concerned, the most likely explanation for this claimed increase is that transactivists are making it up. It’s not ideal that there are a few women who challenge other women, but that has always happened and will continue to happen until gender stereotypes are rejected by society altogether. I’m not sure that will ever happen, but it’s something worth fighting for and transactivism is working in the opposite direction.

Whether or not it is a solution you agree with doesn't change the safeguarding principle.

In summary, there is no other current proof of being a woman so we need to remove safeguarding as a stand alone principle.

Stupid idea.

You prove that there is guaranteed no need for safeguarding then we can remove challenging anyone at toilet doors.

As long as it is possible for males to come into single sex spaces, the challenges must continue.

I’m very sceptical that this has increased at all, frankly. You might be right. If I consider this, it's my fear of challenged that has increased because of the conversation going on.
Agree the rejection of gender stereotypes is worth fighting for.

You prove that there is guaranteed no need for safeguarding then we can remove challenging anyone at toilet doors. I don't agree with this line of thinking. There are many measures that would increase safeguarding that I wouldn't agree with.

Ok, so - women are increasingly worried about males intruding on women's spaces like toilets and changing rooms because of all the publicity.

A female person who 'doesn't identify as a woman' makes sure she has an ambiguous appearance, then tries to use a women's toilet.

Someone mistakes her for a male and challenges her.

Toilets have always been sex segregated, so the same situation could have arisen before genderism became prominent.

The only other solution is to accept males in women's spaces.

If that's what we want to avoid, then unfortunately some genuine women might be asked if they are women.

If more women are being challenged it's because of the increase in men entering women's spaces.

If we could be sure that most men were decent human beings who would voluntarily stay out of women's spaces we would have less need to do this.

Perhaps @EvilBee and others who are concerned about women being challenged could (a) show that they are decent human beings by staying out of women's toilets if they are male themselves and (b) persuade other males to be decent human beings and also stay out of them.