Woman mistaken for a man and challenged

[h2Oo]

Okay, so I'd like some good old reasoning on this as I appreciate a lot of you are more insightful than me!

I believe men have 0 place in women's toilets, changing families or women only spaces.

But this tripped me up... what do I say to this? It popped up on twitter and I don't know what to argument would be

This woman was questioned because she looks too masculine. But she is indeed a biological woman through and through

www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man

What is the answer? I just don't know

I’m very sceptical that this has increased at all, frankly.

Considering the number of times I was missexed as a child, I doubt that it has increased to the extent that is being asserted.

The difference is that 40+ years ago I didn’t go onto social media and make it newsworthy.

And thank you to all those wonderful articulate women who have stated very clearly that they have been challenged but consider those doing it as being women caring about other women’s needs, and sometimes even thank those women for doing it.

Absolutely as a parent I am going to keep politely enquiring. And if any poster wishes to again accuse me of child abuse for doing it, well, that is part of their own twisted political agenda.

My other thought is how many people really would think anything of being mistaken for the other sex?

I can imagine many men feel insulted - that's either a strong gender identity or more likely misogynistic horror at being seen female - and others would make a huge joke of it

it's never happened to me in person ,

when it has happened I have been pleased as I can avoid the sort of treatment that can occur on a work situation when a sexist male is aware they are dealing with. A female

So why the upset ? You know you deliberately look as masculine as possible yet get upset when someone sees you as masculine? Mixed up

“You know you deliberately look as masculine as possible yet get upset when someone sees you as masculine?”

This is the part of the discussion that usually gets conveniently ignored. Some extreme activists often fall back on posting pics of females who have used testosterone to change their body to take on male cues as a ‘gotcha’.

Yet how many times do we see transitioned females state clearly that they realise their actions in changing their appearance in this way can cause other females distress.

You know what those transitioned females tell us they do?

Find other solutions that fit their needs.

Strange how @EvilBee who keeps telling us they consider themselves a spokesperson for the trans community ignores this fact. Plus the fact that there ARE males with a trans indentity that are also very clear that they continue to use the male spaces.

That is why very few posters on this board would ever believe EvilBee confident assertion that they speak for such a diverse group.

This thread got bloody long, didn't it?

It's 100% genderism that has caused this mess.

If you're going to suggest that males can use women's spaces at will, you are going to get a lot of very cross women who are on guard and suspicious.

Not really much point coming on Mumsnet and berating us for doing everything wrong, either - t'aint Mumsnetters that are going to be the ones causing problems, I promise you. Railing at us on the feminist board for being 'gender conforming' and overly feminine is ... well, it's mildly amusing.

Either we have everything entirely mixed sex - no sex segregation at all - or people stick to the spaces designed for their sex.

Wouldn’t third spaces solve these issues? Terf only toilets have been suggested by a prominent tra, and I personally think they’re a wonderful idea. I’d welcome any butch lesbians, gnc women and transmen wanting to use them, so long as they understood their sex may be politely queried (as mine was occasionally in my buzz cut days).
It’s my suspicion that the Terf only toilets would still be the ones with queues, though.

This.

I have no idea why this person would feel “unsafe” if a woman politely challenged them. In fact even if several women did at once it would not make them unsafe, slightly uncomfortable at worst I would say.
Unsafe is what a woman may well be if a man was in a female only space. Being uncomfortable is not dangerous, being unsafe is

Or more accurately, wouldn't stopping male violence stop these issues?

If some men didn't rape, abuse and assault women, women would feel much safer?

Funny how the TRA's make females out to to be the problem here - makes us lose sight of the true reason.

Is that their goal? To distract us from what these men are doing?

Well toilets are not really about violence are they? I know is a triggering situation for many women but it's much more that that

dignity - that's why most men also prefer single sex - it's not that they are afraid of women it's that they prefer to use urinals without a female gaze, they feel uncomfortable about offending women or seeing blood

"But what was initially a joyous time for her became clouded with people assuming that she was a man, just because she no longer had breasts."

I've never looked at someone's breasts or lack of when making that instinctive subconscious judgment on whether someone is male our female. There are many more subtle signs that we notice - probably beginning with the way they move, mannerisms, general proportions. These are things we have much less control over then appearance.

Ah. See India Willoughby's often quoted Tweet, where in an airport the main, immediately accessible and large women's toilets had been designated gender neutral for the convenience and celebration of TQ+ people. With a female only facility signposted some way off for females who could not use a mixed sex space.

And India tweeted gleefully about how India made a point of trotting all the way to the female only space and using it to make exceptionally clear that male people are gonna male all over female people's access, inclusion and humanity unless legally prevented from doing so. Because apparently, total inability to respect anyone else's needs or care about them (while loudly shouting about entitlement of everyone else to care about them) is a Thing.

At about that point I gave up on the idea of third spaces, and frankly I no longer care about what anyone else does, because mutual respect/inclusion isn't part of this agenda. It's a male rights movement about oppressing females.

If you change your appearance to the point of confusing others, it's not up to them to celebrate your 'joyful time', it's up to you to take some responsibility not to cause alarm and distress to others.

I've got a friend who is a butch lesbian and is also GC. We were talking about this last night and she said that she gets "misgendered" literally every day (eg in shops) and has been challenged for using the Women's toilets.

It genuinely doesn't bother her. As soon as she speaks, people realise that she's a woman and are usually apologetic.

She would rather be challenged herself than have men (including "Transwomen") go in and not be challenged.

There's an interesting substack about the issue here.
open.substack.com/pub/ceriblack/p/butch-handmaidens?r=63mp5&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Third spaces would be very useful. Self-contained rooms, slightly larger than a conventional cubicle so that there's room for a pram and they can act as a parent + child toilet too. No more wedging the pram in the doorway and no more arguments about where a child of the opposite sex to their parent should go if they're not quite independent enough to go in on their own.

In practice though, I can imagine it being like that school where the girls were told that if they didn't want to change for PE with a transgirl, they would have to use the third space (in this case the small disabled facility). Needless to say the transgirl complained that none of them would change with him her, they were all cramming into the disabled changing room. Because that's what girls exist for in their view, validating the delusions of the sacred caste of boys.

That’s an interesting point.
If someone were to do a survey amongst “butch” women, gay or otherwise to ask is it worth you being occasionally asked if you were in the correct toilets to keep men out of women only spaces - I wonder what the answers would be.
I am very obviously a woman but If I had to say “actually I AM a woman” from time to time to keep men out I would happily do it

All good points.

Notice that when third spaces are provided, filled with the female type people who are privileged to be able to share mixed sex spaces - they won't do.

They're not enough. The willing females aren't the desired ones.

And that tells you everything you need to know about the reality of: 'we just want to pee'.

Female only spaces, gatekept. And everyone else who is either not part of that group or has identified out of that group can go and sort out their own arrangements. When there's some good will and reciprocation I'll be glad to interest myself in their choices and needs.

Something struck me as odd the very first time I read that article. Oh well, at least now Tiff can't bleat non binary when people point out her sex.

"Playing with my breasts like a stress ball"

Maybe she ought to update her name badge and pronouns to help the issue she finds herself in eh?

This reeks of TRA 🐂💩