Page 4 | Woman mistaken for a man and challenged

h2Oo · 2022-12-29T21:05:22+00:00

Okay, so I'd like some good old reasoning on this as I appreciate a lot of you are more insightful than me! I believe men have 0 place in women's toilets, changing families or women only spaces. But this tripped me up... what do I say to this? It popped up on twitter and I don't know what to argument would be This woman was questioned because she looks too masculine. But she is indeed a biological woman through and through https://www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man What is the answer? I just don't know

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:23

not conforming to stereotypes is something that is very clearly accepted on this board
All well and good being in social media land and words on a page saying you are, but RL clearly says otherwise if gender non conforming women are getting challenged for not being feminine looking enough, or would feel upset or intimidated being confronted in the toilets when out and about.

DdraigGoch · 30/12/2022 00:23

h2Oo · 29/12/2022 21:12

Yes. However it does raise the question that if you look too masculine, is it okay for other women to challenge you?

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If women could be confident that men wouldn't push boundaries, then there would be no need to challenge anyone. Until that minority of men stops pushing themselves into women's spaces then the risk of causing an upset by challenging someone is less than the consequences of letting men have unfettered access.

Luredbyapomegranate · 30/12/2022 00:24

Whatever the particulars of this case, there is nothing wrong with challenging people who don’t appear to be female who are using female loos.

You can sympathise with the individuals who might be challenged while supporting the right to challenge.

Women are allowed to defend their right to feel safe. And that means not being lovely to everyone all the time.

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:26

Cross posted with Onn

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:29

Women are allowed to defend their right to feel safe
Unless you're one that's seemingly not prettily feminine enough and then you can be challenged and misgendered all you like and told to get out.
I know I'd find that a bit intimidating if that happened to me (I'd give as good as I got but it would shake you a bit I imagine!)

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/12/2022 00:31

Onnabugeisha · 30/12/2022 00:06

Gender nonconforming women & children are viewed as cannon fodder. I had a thread begging MN to at least leave children out of this whole toilet challenge trend, as in properly pre-teen children but to no avail. Apparently even a young ‘tomboy’ girl should be raised to handle being confronted by an angry adult in the toilets. 🤨

I tend to think gender conforming women do not care because it’s not something they’d ever have to experience. So the voices of gender nonconforming women, especially butch lesbians, are simply disregarded and minimised.

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I'm sorry but you are ignoring the GNC women, some of whom are on this very thread, who say they understand this is happening as a result of trans women pushing female people's boundaries and would rather be challenged themselves than have women afraid to challenge anyone.

And I'm very sorry that the entitlement of trans women, encouraged by genderist activism, has lead to the point where there is no pain free solution. This did not have to happen. There are many ways society could accommodate trans women and it's a real shame that gender ideology insists - well, let's not mince words, lies - that the only option is to appropriate female spaces, resources and emotional safety in service of males. But, given this is where gender activists have chosen to take us, I would rather some female people are unfortunately embarrassed than all female people are made less safe and less confident in order to meet demands of males.

You worry that even a young ‘tomboy’ girl should be raised to handle being confronted by an angry adult in the toilets (you didn't mention this but let's be clear, this wouid specifically be an angry female adult) but apparently aren't worried that the alternative is that young girls will need to be raised to face an angry or over friendly male adult in the toilets instead.

Incidentally, if you are OK for women's toilets to be open to trans women but not other males, who exactly are you expecting to challenge the men who should not be there, and how is that any different to this scenario?

You accuse feminists of turning GNC women into cannon fodder based on the risk they may be challenged, but you want to turn all female people into cannon fodder with a risk of much worse simply to accomodate male demand.

ofwarren · 30/12/2022 00:31

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 29/12/2022 23:31

Twitter is notorious for fake news including doctored photos and videos.
I have looked to see that photo elsewhere, it seems to have come from the article - which doesn't show any pronouns as they seem to have been blurred out
So goodness knows where they have come from in that tweet 😕 doesn't seem very reliable when can't see it mentioned anywhere else

The badge isn't doctored, it's the thumbnail for the article but blurred out in the newspaper itself.
Google her name and check for yourself

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:32

I'm sorry but you are ignoring the GNC women, some of whom are on this very thread, who say they understand this is happening as a result of trans women pushing female people's boundaries and would rather be challenged themselves than have women afraid to challenge anyone.
But you're saying that conveniently ignoring the ones that have said they would and do care?!

Onnabugeisha · 30/12/2022 00:33

DdraigGoch · 30/12/2022 00:23

If women could be confident that men wouldn't push boundaries, then there would be no need to challenge anyone. Until that minority of men stops pushing themselves into women's spaces then the risk of causing an upset by challenging someone is less than the consequences of letting men have unfettered access.

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That’s all well and good. But doesn’t explain the apparent necessity of destroying any woman who is publicly challenged and says they are upset about the experiences they frequently endure. (Not saying you are doing this personally- referring to the Twitter thread and other similar ones from similar cases).

Posting a doctored photo on Twitter to convince GC women that Tiffany is really called Taylor and goes by they/them is a pretty shit move to be honest. I don’t believe it at all. If she really did go by Taylor and they/them, then the article published 3 days ago would not have repeatedly dead named and mis-gendered her. Also her Facebook page would surely not have her dead name on it either.

Those same tweets are then repeated here as if it the information were true with insinuations that she intended to pass for male. It’s quite depressing really, who is manipulating information and why? What else regarding the “gender wars” is literally fake news?

DdraigGoch · 30/12/2022 00:33

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 21:49

Like..they're AFAB non-binary..how does this change the story? Do you approve of harassment of people in toilets? Like normally you're demanding strict separation of facilities by birth sex...

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Someone made a mistake. Shit happens. No one died as a result.

Perhaps if people like you weren't so intent upon pushing men into women's spaces, people wouldn't be so on-edge.

ClaphamSouth · 30/12/2022 00:33

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:23

not conforming to stereotypes is something that is very clearly accepted on this board
All well and good being in social media land and words on a page saying you are, but RL clearly says otherwise if gender non conforming women are getting challenged for not being feminine looking enough, or would feel upset or intimidated being confronted in the toilets when out and about.

The harms, injustices and indignities done to women by gender identity ideology and its proponents those who are many and varied. Those GNC women who feel upset by potentially being challenged by other women in loos are yet another example.

waterwitch · 30/12/2022 00:34

@Onnabugeisha no, it doesn’t rely on gender stereotypes, it relies on being able to tell what sex someone is - you know, size, hands, feet, gait (due to pelvic geometry. Then speaking to someone gives vocal cues too.
Note you didn’t respond to the point about questioning someone being better than someone getting attacked. Maybe you don’t think so…

ofwarren · 30/12/2022 00:36

@Onnabugeisha
It isn't doctored.
Read my post with photos and Google her name yourself.
Click on the image, not the link and you will see the badge in the thumbnail.

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:36

You worry that even a young ‘tomboy’ girl should be raised to handle being confronted by an angry adult in the toilets (you didn't mention this but let's be clear, this wouid specifically be an angry female adult)
So what if it was an angry female adult?! You seem to be implying that it's " only a lady, can't possibly be scary" which is just bull, sorry. An angry adult as a child is just that, an angry adult!
Hate the "I'm just a lady" narrative on here some have when it suits.

DdraigGoch · 30/12/2022 00:40

mumarooni · 29/12/2022 22:15

Murderers? Muggers? Sorry I'm being obtuse I hope it comes across with the tongue in cheek intended. I do I know more aggressive crimes are committed by men, but I also know the vast majority of men are safe to pee near. And if safety is the key aim, then safer spaces would work for everyone? I also think some loos are less likely to be safe (eg those used alongside drinking at night) and I think a much higher standard of architectural safety there would be great. I have felt unsafe in (single sex) loos when people had too much to drink and were fighting eachother etc. I do think loo safety is a real issue. It's just doesn't translate to a strictly trans issue to me at all.

Of course the vast majority of men are harmless. How though do you tell which ones aren't before it's too late?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/12/2022 00:40

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:32

I'm sorry but you are ignoring the GNC women, some of whom are on this very thread, who say they understand this is happening as a result of trans women pushing female people's boundaries and would rather be challenged themselves than have women afraid to challenge anyone.
But you're saying that conveniently ignoring the ones that have said they would and do care?!

No, because I'm not the person who is making the claim. I'm pointing out the gap in their argument.

I've acknowledged that since gender activists have put us in the position where sadly someone gets hurt.

My preference would be to stop pushing for males in female spaces full stop, and find better ways to support gender non conforming males. However if that's not on the table, the best remaining option is to try to minimise the impact to hurt feelings only.

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:40

Someone made a mistake. Shit happens. No one died as a result.
No one died that's ok then.
Shit happens?!
Nice.
Fuck women, if they are physically or verbally. challenged in the toilets and feel threatened
Shit happens.
Wow

waterwitch · 30/12/2022 00:41

I would far rather my daughter was questioned by a woman in the toilets than that Katie Dolatowski got in there and tried to rape her. It is no good just pretending that doesn’t happen

Onnabugeisha · 30/12/2022 00:44

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/12/2022 00:31

I'm sorry but you are ignoring the GNC women, some of whom are on this very thread, who say they understand this is happening as a result of trans women pushing female people's boundaries and would rather be challenged themselves than have women afraid to challenge anyone.

And I'm very sorry that the entitlement of trans women, encouraged by genderist activism, has lead to the point where there is no pain free solution. This did not have to happen. There are many ways society could accommodate trans women and it's a real shame that gender ideology insists - well, let's not mince words, lies - that the only option is to appropriate female spaces, resources and emotional safety in service of males. But, given this is where gender activists have chosen to take us, I would rather some female people are unfortunately embarrassed than all female people are made less safe and less confident in order to meet demands of males.

You worry that even a young ‘tomboy’ girl should be raised to handle being confronted by an angry adult in the toilets (you didn't mention this but let's be clear, this wouid specifically be an angry female adult) but apparently aren't worried that the alternative is that young girls will need to be raised to face an angry or over friendly male adult in the toilets instead.

Incidentally, if you are OK for women's toilets to be open to trans women but not other males, who exactly are you expecting to challenge the men who should not be there, and how is that any different to this scenario?

You accuse feminists of turning GNC women into cannon fodder based on the risk they may be challenged, but you want to turn all female people into cannon fodder with a risk of much worse simply to accomodate male demand.

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I’m not ignoring them…they are not a concern because they are ok. Are you saying that the women who are challenged and upset about it should just shut up? Sounds like it to me.

I would rather some female people are unfortunately embarrassed than all female people are made less safe and less confident in order to meet demands of males.. Yes well why does it have to be this binary choice of hurt girls and women to potentially protect some other girls and women? (Let’s not kid ourselves, it’s not some vs all, it’s some vs some.)

Incidentally, if you are OK for women's toilets to be open to trans women but not other males. I’m not ok for womens toilets to be used by males, but I’m also not ok for GNC women to be accosted in toilets either. Being against one thing, doesn’t have to mean you are in favour of the other.

You accuse feminists of turning GNC women into cannon fodder based on the risk they may be challenged, but you want to turn all female people into cannon fodder with a risk of much worse simply to accomodate male demand.

Yes GC women have turned GNC women and girls into cannon fodder. No, I don’t want to turn all women into cannon fodder either. You’re stuck in the web of propaganda that has told you that you must hurt women and girls out of fear for other women and girls. It’s not necessary.

DdraigGoch · 30/12/2022 00:46

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 29/12/2022 22:44

I'd rather not be feeling like I was going to get challenged every time I went in a female toilet because I didn't look "feminine" 🙄 enough even though I have every right to be in there, that's more intimidating and threatening to me than the will I or won't I see a trans woman in there going about her business and probably doesn't even give a toss about what others are doing in there and just going for a pee like the rest of us

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metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

"Just going for a pee"?

I'd prefer to protect the truly vulnerable, thanks. If that means a bit of hurty feelings then that's a risk I'll have to take.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/12/2022 00:47

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/12/2022 00:36

You worry that even a young ‘tomboy’ girl should be raised to handle being confronted by an angry adult in the toilets (you didn't mention this but let's be clear, this wouid specifically be an angry female adult)
So what if it was an angry female adult?! You seem to be implying that it's " only a lady, can't possibly be scary" which is just bull, sorry. An angry adult as a child is just that, an angry adult!
Hate the "I'm just a lady" narrative on here some have when it suits.

No, I'm saying an angry male, on average, is more scary. Bigger, more physical strength, more entitlement.

Hate the "I'm just a lady" narrative on here some have when it suits.

I think you read according to your own prejudices rather than what people are actually saying.

I'm not "just a lady". I'm fucking brilliant. But I also know I'm nowhere near as strong or physically imposing as the average male adult.

Jetsonsfan · 30/12/2022 00:48

DdraigGoch · 30/12/2022 00:46

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

"Just going for a pee"?

I'd prefer to protect the truly vulnerable, thanks. If that means a bit of hurty feelings then that's a risk I'll have to take.

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.

Onnabugeisha · 30/12/2022 00:51

ofwarren · 30/12/2022 00:36

@Onnabugeisha
It isn't doctored.
Read my post with photos and Google her name yourself.
Click on the image, not the link and you will see the badge in the thumbnail.

I have. Every reputable news site says she is Tiffany Liles-Taylor and uses pronouns if she/her. It is only on Twitter that the weird claim that she actually goes by Taylor and they/them appears along with what looks like a photo lifted from the news and a clear name badge added.

The image you have is from Twitter.

WendelineTestaburger · 30/12/2022 00:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

LK1972 · 30/12/2022 00:51

My GNC daughter gets challenged on occasion, smiles and replies 'I'm a girl', followed by many apologies by the person challenging. Totally understands why it happens. Perhaps Tiffany could develop some empathy and realise that many women do not think men should be using their toilets?

Why are some women (I assume) on this thread so keen on women not challenging perceived men in the toilets, what are you trying to achieve? More men in women's loos, unisex loos by default, for what purpose?