Page 6 | WTF India Willoughby Racist tweet

badbaduncle · 2022-11-29T12:43:06+00:00

https://twitter.com/KDansky/status/1597292701728137216?cxt=HBwWgICjjfvP3KosAAAA&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email I don't understand this tweet at all - wtf does India mean? 'All one word"

Abccde · 30/11/2022 11:25

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/11/2022 11:23

I don't tend to do things simply because people tell me to. If I did I would call transwomen "women" and I would comply with "preferred pronouns

So if people were to carry on calling you cis then you'd be fine with that.
Seeing as it's a demand that someone doesn't have to go along with or because they've told you not to?
if you do have a problem with someone still doing that after you've said you don't like it, y ou've got some serious double standards / hypocrisy going on there.

But she's not a cis woman. If she's an adult female she is a woman. No other descriptor is required.

Signalbox · 30/11/2022 11:25

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/11/2022 11:17

I didn't say it's impossible to comply with. I'm saying that I don't think the argument made is a very compelling one and it's a demand that I choose not to comply with

Um....

It's not enough. People make demands of us all the time. If would be impossible to comply with all of them

Ok

Oh don't be daft. You must realise that both those statements can be true.

Signalbox · 30/11/2022 11:38

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/11/2022 11:23

I don't tend to do things simply because people tell me to. If I did I would call transwomen "women" and I would comply with "preferred pronouns

So if people were to carry on calling you cis then you'd be fine with that.
Seeing as it's a demand that someone doesn't have to go along with or because they've told you not to?
if you do have a problem with someone still doing that after you've said you don't like it, y ou've got some serious double standards / hypocrisy going on there.

So if people were to carry on calling you cis then you'd be fine with that.

If someone calls me "cis" I would probably correct them and tell them why I don't think I belong in that category. But if they persist that's up to them. It's their ideological language and if they want to slot me into a category that is irrelevant to me it's not something I would lose sleep over.

Seeing as it's a demand that someone doesn't have to go along with or because they've told you not to?

I'm not sure what this means.

if you do have a problem with someone still doing that after you've said you don't like it, you've got some serious double standards / hypocrisy going on there.

I can not like something and still not want to police other people's language. Other people should be free to use the language they want and I expect the same for myself. Personally I don't think this makes me a hypocrite.

Dreikanter · 30/11/2022 11:41

To go back to IW, IW spends a huge amount of time on Twitter - posting a few days ago that last week’s Twitter screen time daily average was 3hrs 19 mins which was down 66% on the previous week.

Maybe IW would be better stepping away for a while (I see that last night’s flounce didn’t last long).

And just a thought, why, if there simply has to be a single space in “trans woman” (oh the irony), why is transphobe not “trans phobe”?

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 11:47

Manteiga · 30/11/2022 10:20

"Black women are a subset of women" is true of course, but it's a weird thing to come out with, as if they're not prototypical women, somehow at the boundary of womanhood, and we need reminding that they are in fact women. (When the maths teacher says "squares are a subset of rectangles", her point is to counter the misconception that they're not.)

We can and ought to challenge a statement having such an unpleasant subtext, but needn't object to innocuous uses of subset in data analysis and the like.

Barracker's example is spot on:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3556691-a-subset-of-women?reply=86243815&utm_source=thread&utm_medium=share

Thank you.

Barracker did have a fine way with words.

Original poster

badbaduncle · 30/11/2022 12:56

From a biological point of view black women are women, and all other races of females are a variant that arose due to environmental pressues.
Trans women are a variant of men, a gender non conforming variant. Whether the variation is innate - as race is - or cultural is a much debated issue. No trans women is any type of woman and no woman is more a woman than a black woman.

OP posts:

MoirasSaggyBundles · 30/11/2022 13:13

BatCheeseIsFine · 30/11/2022 09:07

The word “subset” is not the problem, it’s saying that TW are a subset of women in the same way that black women are that is the problem. A) because they are not - black women are women, trans women are not. And b) because choosing black women for that comparison is racist. If TW are comparable to black women, that’s suggesting black women are like transwomen I.e. not actually female. It’s also dubious to pick black women for this comparison because it shows an assumption that white or non-black women are the default woman and black women are “other”. And this is when TRAs are always insinuating that GC people are all white and there’s a “white feminism” that doesn’t allow black women in, which is bollocks. Loads of black and Asian and other women all over the world are both leading and grassroots feminists and always have been. The whole point of feminism is that it’s about all female people and the persecution and discrimination we all face. But as ever, genderists project.

I can actually see how people think “subset” might be derogatory or insulting - like subnormal, suboptimal, substandard etc. it’s not at all, it just means a group within a larger group. But if gender ideologues thought it meant a lesser kind of women, they wouldn’t say it about TW.

still maybe it will change in meaning and become a proscribed word.

I'm brown. Thank you for articulating the point so well. I don't mind being in a subset of women. I would mind if that is used to make me a direct comparator to TW, who are not and never can be a subset of women. This is constantly being done to black women by TRAs. The only other group that seems to get this spurious comparison to a sub set of men is butch lesbians, which makes the comparator grossly offensive to those women and homophobic.

howmanybicycles · 30/11/2022 13:56

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 30/11/2022 11:23

I don't tend to do things simply because people tell me to. If I did I would call transwomen "women" and I would comply with "preferred pronouns

So if people were to carry on calling you cis then you'd be fine with that.
Seeing as it's a demand that someone doesn't have to go along with or because they've told you not to?
if you do have a problem with someone still doing that after you've said you don't like it, y ou've got some serious double standards / hypocrisy going on there.

This is a bad analogy. 'Trans woman' is rhetoric designed to hide the fact that TW are males and therefore not included in the category of woman. Calling someone cis is describing their identity - something which can clearly only be described by the person themselves.

'Woman' is not, and has never been, an identity statement. TW don't like this fact as their belief that they are a woman hinges on the fallacious belief that women 'identify as women'. Most don't.

WallaceinAnderland · 30/11/2022 23:40

Transgender is where the identity begins and ends.

Woman is not an identity; woman is an adult human female.

Women can neither identify into or out of their biology. They just are.

Black woman is a descriptor. You can be both black and a woman.

Transgender woman is an oxymoron. You can only be one or the other, not both.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/11/2022 23:46

Transgender woman is an oxymoron. You can only be one or the other, not both.
Well... TM or 'nonbinary' females exist but don't want to be called women.

WallaceinAnderland · 01/12/2022 00:02

Well... TM or 'nonbinary' females exist but don't want to be called women.

Transgender is an identity. Man is an adult human male.

Nonbinary is an identity.

No person can identity out of their sex.

GrinAndVomit · 02/12/2022 07:40

I think it’s the part where she implies that if it wasn’t for liberal white people taking pity on black people, Esther wouldn’t have a job that is the most horrific.
IW is a really awful human being.

nilsmousehammer · 02/12/2022 09:31

ErrolTheDragon · 30/11/2022 23:46

Transgender woman is an oxymoron. You can only be one or the other, not both.
Well... TM or 'nonbinary' females exist but don't want to be called women.

The issue in a nutshell.

There are people who would prefer you state that although reality is X, they would prefer the pretense of everyone that it is in fact Y.

People have supported this through niceness, kindness and lots of awareness of difficult feelings and struggles for which they wish to be supportive.

The question is now, how far people should continue to support this when those requesting this enablement have begun to totally take the piss and to insist that Y is literally true, and that X no longer exists. And this has a major impact on many of those whose equality and access depends on X.

At that point, we're into issues of coercive control an abusive behaviour, and whether there are some who it was not kind to enable to believe that Y was real in the first place. Because there's no getting away from X.

dancingqueen123 · 02/12/2022 09:37

Jesus

AlisonDonut · 02/12/2022 09:46

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 29/11/2022 22:59

Equating women who are black to males is what is horribly racist.
She didn't equate the two though.
Just pointing out racism, and transphobia.
People only seem to see racism though, ,(good that they can see see and be horrified by!) if you point out transphobic stuff though you get responses like (ridiculous, everything's transphobic nowadays!)
Which is exactly what racists say - as in, "ridiculous everything's racist nowadays!)
It's not equating them, or saying they're the same to point this out.
They're two separate issues.
Racism and transphobia. Awfully similar "arguments" though.

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How it is transphobic to ask what it is that males are doing with so many tampons? Do we know yet why IW was so keen to go and buy loads?

Ofcourseshecan · 02/12/2022 09:47

Farmageddon · 29/11/2022 17:34

As far as I recall, MN used to ban people (or possibly delete posts) that referred to trans identified males, not sure what the rules are now.

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Yes, I fell foul of that restriction. A pity, because 'trans identified (or identifying) male' is the best expression imo. Honest and clear.

The term 'transwoman' has always bothered me because it's the thin end of the wedge to all these ridiculous further demands. Any word or phrase containing woman needs to be clearly about adult human females.

@EdgeofaCoin and @Hellofabore had some good ideas too.

Helleofabore · 02/12/2022 09:53

AlisonDonut · 02/12/2022 09:46

How it is transphobic to ask what it is that males are doing with so many tampons? Do we know yet why IW was so keen to go and buy loads?

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Bleeding noses? Deep narrow puncture wound first aid?

AlisonDonut · 02/12/2022 10:02

Helleofabore · 02/12/2022 09:53

Bleeding noses? Deep narrow puncture wound first aid?

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Back when I was at school in the early 80s, so quite a long time ago...my actual next door neighbour [who I never spoke to in school] had a horrendous ear infection and borrowed a tampon off my friend to mop it up but that's because she was bonkers and we were fans of The Young Ones and the school was shit and didn't take him off to get seen to.

And that's the last time I've ever known a male go anywhere near one in the flesh. I've known men buy them for their daughters but actually touch one?

RoyalCorgi · 02/12/2022 10:07

The post from Barracker is brilliant. I'm so sorry she's gone. What was she banned for - was it the pronouns post? I hope she's making her voice heard elsewhere.

AlisonDonut · 02/12/2022 10:08

Just wondering how it is 'transphobic' in the first place. What do males want with female hygiene products?

ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2022 10:08

dancingqueen123 · 02/12/2022 09:37

Jesus

Oh don't bring her into it.

Beowulfa · 02/12/2022 10:15

I read a book of racing anecdotes that claimed a horse once raced with tampons (sourced from the St John ambulance) in its ears to block crowd noise. Does India own some particularly flighty racehorses?

DialSquare · 02/12/2022 10:16

a horse once raced with tampons

I've got visions of a horse and a load of tampons running round a racecourse now!

dancingqueen123 · 02/12/2022 10:37

🤣 @ErrolTheDragon

HowForNow · 02/12/2022 10:55

I've tried and I've tried and I've TRIED and I still don't get why IW and the TRAs have a problem with transwoman and not trans woman. Why is the former offensive? I must be an absolute vegetable because I genuinely can't understand. Also can't understand why IW doubles down with the racism even if it was transphobic for someone to use the term transwoman. That's the part where I feel she's just not a nice person.

All that said, I feel sorry for IW because she is clearly unstable. And she's been allowed to have all the surgeries and get a new birth certificate etc, so from her point of view going back on that must suck. Go back we need to go though, the whole enabling people to get a falsified birth certificate and identity documents is one of the most insane laws ever passed.