WTF India Willoughby Racist tweet

[badbaduncle]

twitter.com/KDansky/status/1597292701728137216?cxt=HBwWgICjjfvP3KosAAAA&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email

I don't understand this tweet at all - wtf does India mean? 'All one word"

Full guidelines here

www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

(For all that they may irk us at times, the recent 'lifeboat' makes me appreciate what MNHQ manage in hosting this more or less civilised space for feminist discussion)

I'm sorry if anyone's eating (fair warning...), but I vaguely remember something about some transwomen freezing diluted blood or even diluted tomato ketchup into conformable shapes, inserting them anally or into whatever cavity they may have after SRS, then using tampons to deal with the resultant self inflicted leakage. There's not enough brain bleach in the world sometimes.

People who live and breathe Twitter all day gaining their validation via 2d toilet wall comments.

Read the tweet. Absolutely disgusting, what a racist, misogynistic ball bag.

Not commenting on a person who is increasingly looking unwell.

However you don't have to look very far in TQ+ activism on Twitter to discover that racism, homophobia and hatred of women is very near the surface. There are certain attitudes and values that have found this form of activism a very useful means of release and expression without encountering disapproval.

Not for a long time. Not since 2021 I believe.

I think it is so offensive to India because it faces India with the reality of that fact that India can never be a 'woman'. Some people politely say India is a 'transwoman' in order not to have face India with the reality of India's maleness. But India wants people to deny reality even more.

I wondered if India's real objection to the Big Brother drag queen moment was that it made India have to think about now many people might actually see India - again the need to deny reality was so strong that there is no one India will not victimise to maintain India's illusion.

However you don't have to look very far in TQ+ activism on Twitter to discover that racism, homophobia and hatred of women is very near the surface.

Yes, once you’ve seen the streak of misogyny running through the trans activism on Twitter, you can’t unsee it.

On the subject of TRA racism, another way it shows shows itself is in the strange insistence that virtually all GC women are white. Prominent black and Asian women are speaking out against certain aspects of gender ideology. They include writers, women’s rights campaigners and lawyers. Yet, some trans activists simply won’t acknowledge this and continue to parrot the “GCs are white and middle-class” line.

Yes, it's like they want to put us all in the 'privileged uppity women' category, so they can position themselves as the poor marginalised ones. Even though India is a white, middle class, middle aged male....so not at the bottom of any privilege category really. Except in India's mind where India is always the victim, even when being a racist asshole.

Equating women who are black to males is what is horribly racist.
She didn't equate the two though.
Just pointing out racism, and transphobia.
People only seem to see racism though, ,(good that they can see see and be horrified by!) if you point out transphobic stuff though you get responses like (ridiculous, everything's transphobic nowadays!)
Which is exactly what racists say - as in, "ridiculous everything's racist nowadays!)
It's not equating them, or saying they're the same to point this out.
They're two separate issues.
Racism and transphobia. Awfully similar "arguments" though.

Fair points, nils.

Also, having just had a look at Twitter, wanted to say that the threat Willoughby received was appalling, and I hope the police catch up with whomever sent it and deal with them.

Who would say, in the year 2022, that black women are a sub-set of women???

Didn’t we have a thread like this a couple of years back, with people who didn’t pay attention in Year 7 Maths making comments like the above?

Obviously black women are a subset of women. The set of women includes all women. Those women who are black therefore comprise a subset.

The word subset does not imply inferiority.

Black women are not a subset of women.
They are women.
You don't say white women are a subset of women, (never heard anyone say that anyway!) so why say that black women are?!
Why separate us when we're both ( as in black or white women? )
It seems kind of othering to do so.

Of course. If they weren’t women they couldn’t be a subset, because they would not be included in the set of women in the first place.

White women are a subset of women. Women who like listening to Bach are a subset of women. Women who read Mumsnet are a subset of women. The particular characteristic doesn’t matter. All the members of the subset are women, as are all the members of the set women outside the subset.

Some posters seem to have a real issue with the word subset and I don't understand why.

Oooh!

Is there going to be a TRA campaign to replace India on daytime TV with a black transwoman presenter? Or maybe a black nonbinary transfemme?

Because that just might be the petition to unite us all!

She didn't equate the two though.
Just pointing out racism, and transphobia.
People only seem to see racism though, ,(good that they can see see and be horrified by!) if you point out transphobic stuff though you get responses like (ridiculous, everything's transphobic nowadays!)

One person asked a reasonable question but missed out a space between the words transgender (trans) and woman.

The other person, in response, called her a 'talentless, bigoted black woman who wouldn't be anywhere without woke.

Not the same at all.

And just now IW has doubled down on those comments on latest twitter post:

Right: Attention hippy trans ✌️and those in the US who have no idea what they’re talking about re my exchange with a Right Wing bigot who happens to be black. Back off. You’re missing the point. Had my fill.#Block
1:59 am · 30 Nov 2022
·Twitter for iPhone

Of course white women are a subset of women (because not all women are white).

Black women are a subset of women (because not all women are black).

Asian women are a subset of women (because not all women are Asian).

Curly-haired women are a subset of women (because not all women have curly hair).

Women with degrees are a subset of women (because not all women have degrees).

However, all of the above are women because they are adult human females. We can break that down further:

A junior human female is a girl, so not a 'woman'.
A non-human adult female might be a ewe or a doe or a hen or something else, depending on the non-animal species involved, so not a 'woman'.
An adult human male is a man so not a 'woman'.

Girls are not a subset of women (because they are not adult) but they are a subset of 'females'.

Transwomen are adult and human but not female. (If they were female, they would not be trans.) Therefore, transwomen are not a subset of women.

Transmen on the other hand are adult, human and female and so are a subset of women.

These statements are not racist or transphobic, they are just biological facts.

People only seem to see racism though, ,(good that they can see see and be horrified by!) if you point out transphobic stuff though you get responses like (ridiculous, everything's transphobic nowadays!)

the difference being "why does a 57 year old trans woman need tampons?" is not a transphobic question is it? Break it down if it is. How is it racist?
You could take out "trans" and it's still a valid question. "why does a 57 year old woman need tampons?". It's hardly ageist, is it?

saying using transwomen instead of trans women isn't transphobic. But it is claimed it is.

Asking why trans women can't use a 3rd space then everyone has the space they want isn't a transphobic question. And yet the TRAs claim it is.

Saying that the dictionary definition of a woman is "adult human female" isn't transphobic. TRAs will claim otherwise.

Bearded, besuited chap using the female toilets is told "this is the ladies" and answers that they identify as female and that's transphobic. HOW ARE WE SUPPOED TO TELL.

ad infinitum

So yes, the TRAs do claim things are transphobic which aren't.

mathematically, of course, the word subset is fine.

But many many many black women have asked us not to refer to them in that way. And i think that we ought to respect that. In the same way i reject being referred to with the 'cis' epithet.

Are there really many many black women who object to being classed as a subset of women? I didn’t realise this was a thing.

It’s not really like “cis” though is it? “Cis” requires a person to “identify” with the “sex assigned at birth” which just doesn’t apply to many people. Being a subset of a group isn’t an identity thing.

I see it on twitter a lot and on here sometimes. And it's fine, i don't want to make people uncomfortable. If i consistently saw "green eyed women" and "white women" (especially the white women one) are a subset of women, it would be a bit, meh. But i have seen enough people ask us not to.

As for 'cis'. The argument is the same. I don't want people calling me a 'cis' woman because it indicates there are other types of women. There are women and there are trans women. But there are no cis women. And i expect people to respect me when i ask them not to.

I've had it with language control and people telling me what language I should use. If people want to identify out of various categories that's fine but they really can't expect other people to disregard the well established and inoffensive meanings of words to please them. Language is how we communicate. How else can you have a conversation about subsets of groups?

Mumsnet is like a real life version of Taboo at times.

What synonym for subset would you prefer us to use? Category?

What term is acceptable when talking about a particular section of adult human females? (I'm assuming 'subsection' is also out.)