Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

Can’t have it both ways

Came to say the same!

Well, I can understand others' reluctance so it's for the group to decide... and I'm not a lesbian... but I'd welcome them as I'd be thinking they might need some support and might be realising that they actually are just a lesbian (female and same sex-attracted). I wouldn't mind using whatever name they like (as we can choose our own names and plenty of people have opposite-sex or unisex names), but I would not agree with using "he", but I'd compromise with "they".

I'd certainly welcome them to any women's group I was in a long way before I'd welcome a TW.

Sorry just clocked your last sentence so apologies for sticking my oar in!

Can’t have it both ways

Came to say the same!

Me too. I understand the reluctance, but if you believe people can't change sex and if this person is attracted to women, then she is a lesbian, whatever 'gender identity' ideas she has about herself.

Surely that’s very invalidating for him?

what you describe is a highly unconventional form of womanhood but is still, unquestionably, an example of it.

re: terms of address, this maybe sounds odd but: (1) to me your name is literally what you call yourself so if this person wants to be called 'Mike' then fair enough; but (2) I wouldn't be quite so understanding when it comes to third person terms of address (pronouns), which very much exist for the benefit of the speaker and the person being spoken to.

Just asked my 18 year old who is a lesbian. She says it depends. She says she would initially welcome them as they are a lesbian, assuming they are attracted to women.

They are a biological woman, who is attracted to other biological women. Therefore a lesbian. She wouldn’t be welcoming if to a trans woman, who was attracted to women wanted to join.

She says how friendly she was with them would depend on how they were as a person after that.

I can't keep up.

A male who embraces the adornments of feminity and "identifies as a woman" and is attracted to women can be a lesbian and a female who embrace the adornments of masculinity and "identifies as a man" and is attracted to can also be a lesbian.

I can understand the indignation.

I wouldn't mind a bio female in the group. Maybe they are having second thoughts about the transition.

Haha!!!

How would you feel about a man identifying as a woman, that fancied women?

That's sounds like a heterosexual male.

Whereas if a transman has a relationship with a female then its a lesbian relationship.

wants to attend regularly.
Why?

I get the fact that this individual is actually female and that some might regard that as the deciding factor, but she has a beard and wants to be called by male pronouns and a male name and that's totally at odds with an all female group. We have some pretty butch members, some of who would pass rather better than this individual, who are happy to be female. As someone else in the group puts it, surely if she's for a woman for relationship purposes then she'd do better among straight women — because lesbians tend to be on the lookout for women who are happy to be women.

I'm coming to the point where I think lesbians are allowed to draw their own lines wherever they see fit, which mind in this case end up in yet another group splitting. Everything about gender ideology is destructive and divisive.

That sounds fine in theory but potentially complicated in practice.

Presumably the members who don’t accept her male identity will welcome her into the group, whereas the ones who do accept his belief that he is a man won’t want him.

Groucho Marx would love it: ‘I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member’

then by that logic, the woman in question is a lesbian female with a beard, yet identifying as man

Personally I think the man identifying as a woman would have more of a claim to join a lesbian group

I'm coming to the point where I think lesbians are allowed to draw their own lines wherever they see fit
Amen.

A woman who is attracted to women, I don't see what the problem is 🤷‍♀️

Personally I think the man identifying as a woman would have more of a claim to join a lesbian group

why? No male can be a lesbian. A lesbian is a female homosexual. A trans identified male therefore cannot ever be a lesbian. The trans identifying female could theoretically be a lesbian, but surely being in a group of female homosexuals would just reinforce the fact she is not a man

On the "can't have it both ways" side. If they identify as a man then they can't demand access to a group for lesbians.

Of course, sadly this exemplifies the loss that so many young women will experience having divorced their existence from reality, claimed a male identity yet now seek out a community / relationships where they feel comfortable. So very sad.

How has she asked to join? Can a meeting be arranged to discuss the obvious contradictions with her before a decision is made ?

As she's a biological woman, I would be supportive of her but this isn't my call to make. Sounds like she wants to try out being a lesbian (in case she is one.)

I'm not a lesbian but I follow Scott Newgent, who nearly died from medical transition and now accepts that she is a woman and a lesbian but cannot detransition without incurring even more problems. She will always have a male voice, male-pattern baldness and have to shave even if she does detransition.

if the group happily welcomes transwomen who have male bodies and accepts that their gender identity makes those transwomen lesbians then the group would be entirely reasonable to exclude a transman.

however it would be equally reasonable (or possibly more so, what with being based on physical reality) to say that any person who is female (however they dress, whatever they call themselves, whatever hormone pills they take) remains female in physical reality and if they are sexually attracted to women then they are a lesbian.

this person was sold a lie, that taking hormones and reinventing themselves would solve their problems. who knows where they are on their path through untangling that, but it seems to me that asking to be allowed to join a group for lesbians might be an important step towards healing and self acceptance. whilst it's not the responsibility of the group to be a therapy for recovery in this way, it would be good if there was room to be helpful, if possible.